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09-04-2013, 02:08 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2013 02:11 PM by docskeptic.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
While it can indeed be interesting to read words written by the men of the time about how they expected the women to behave, what evidence do we have that these laws were in fact respected by all parties involved? Do we just take the Hebrew scribes at their word?
[/quote]

Cardinal Smurf,
The only non-Bilbical sources we have of ancient Jewish life are Josephus and the Elephantine papyri. The latter record the life and times of a Jewish mercenary colony at Elephanta. In it, we read that by the 5th century BCE, the Jewish woman had acquired some rights including the right to divorce, hold property and partake in contracts. They also became liable for taxes and in a list of names of taxpayers, thirty-two were women.

Therefore, at least in the exilic period, there does not appear to be strict adherence to the letter of the law as laid down in the OT. As to the status of women in the ancient past, I can only point to the staus of women in some modern Muslim countries as an analogy.

Doc
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10-04-2013, 06:42 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2013 06:58 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Earlier, while talking about the status of women in ancient Israel, I forgot to mention two further points:
1. Polygamy, as practised by the patriarchs (Abraham, Jacob, etc.) was permitted, while polyandry was not.
2. The status of women was so low that they could easily be offered to gratify the whims of a sexually excited mob to prevent the violation of a hospitality code. This was exemplified by:
a. Lot who offered his two virgin daughters to the mob "to do what you like with them" (Gen. 19:8) to protect the "two angels" who had lodged with him. For this he was called a "righteous man" (2 Pet. 2:7,8).
b. The old man from Ephraim who offered his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine to the mob to protect his guest. On reading this second story, it always struck me that the guest, after giving up his concubine to be ravished (the old man's daughter was apparently untouched), was able to go back to bed and sleep. The next day when about to leave the house he found the abused woman on his threshold. She apparently died in his arms. Not till then does he manifest any outrage. He cuts her body up into 12 parts and sends them to all Israel calling for revenge against the Benjamites. Then ensues a horrific war that ends with the near destruction of Benjamin.

Doc
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10-04-2013, 09:11 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2013 09:35 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
A fitting epilogue to the story noted above (about the Benjamites) is what happened when Israel responded to the man's call for revenge (Judges 20). 400,000 Israelites went up against 26,700 Benjamites (including 700 crack shots with a slingshot). After inquiring of the Lord whether they should fight against Benjamin and getting a positive response, the Israelites were routed by the Benjamites and lost 22,000 men. The next day, after again inquiring of the Lord and getting another positive response, they marched out against Benjamin but were again defeated, losing another 18,000 men.

Finally, on the third day after again inquiring of the Lord and receiving reassurances that they would definitely win this time, the Israelites cleverly forego a frontal assault and plan an ambush. This works and 26,100 of the 26,700 Benjamites are slaughtered. The Israelites then proceed to wipe out the entire population of Benjamin including the women, children and animals.

All Israel then mourns for the near loss of a tribe. To make up to the Benjamites, the elders of Israel formulate a plan where the surviving 600 Benjamites were given the women of Jabesh Gilead. Apparently, Jabesh Gilead did not send a single soldier to the above war, and as punishment "every male and every woman who is not a vrigin" was exterminated. 400 surviving virgins were given to the Benjamites but there was still a shortage of 200 women.

To make up the difference, the elders allowed the remaining single Benjamites to kidnap 200 virgins who were attending the annual festival of the Lord at Shiloh. The elders then pacified the angry fathers of the virgins and so Benjamin was able to continue as a tribe.

Doc
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10-04-2013, 09:27 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 09:11 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  A fitting epilogue to the story noted above (about the Benjamites) is what happened when Israel responded to the man's call for revenge (Judges 20). 400,000 Israelites went up against 26,700 Benjamites (including 700 crack shots with a slingshot). After inquiring of the Lord whether they should fight against Benjamin and getting a positive response, the Israelites were routed by the Benjamites and lost 22,000 men. The next day, after again inquiring of the Lord and getting another positive response, they marched out against Benjamin but were again defeatted, losing another 18,000 men.

Finally, on the third day after again inquiring of the Lord and receiving reassurances that they would definitely win this time, the Israelites cleverly forego a frontal assault and plan an ambush. This works and 26,100 of the 26,700 Benjamites are slaughtered. The Israelites then proceed to wipe out the entire population of Benjamin including the women, children and animals.

All Israel then mourns for the near loss of a tribe. To make up to the Benjamites, the elders of Israel formulate a plan where the surviving 600 Benjamites were given the women of Jabesh Gilead. Apparently, Jabesh Gilead did not send a single soldier to the above war, and as punishment "every male and every woman who is not a vrigin" was exterminated. 400 surviving virgins were given to the Benjamites but there was still a shortage of 200 women.

To make up the difference, the elders allowed the remaining single Benjamites to kidnap 200 virgins who were attending the annual festival of the Lord at Shiloh. The elders then pacified the angry fathers of the virgins and so Benjamin was able to continue as a tribe.

Doc

Doc I have a question about the occupation of the northern kingdom by the Babylonians. Before this time there was no codified Book of jewish law yet after the Babylonians allowed the remnants of the lost tribes to return to Israel they brought with them the now codified Tanakh (or Hebrew Bible). But since they were dealing with multiple versions of the oral history more than 1 version of the events were included. If the bible is the unchanging word of God how does one explain the existence of internally contradictory texts?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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10-04-2013, 10:05 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2013 11:16 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
If the bible is the unchanging word of God how does one explain the existence of internally contradictory texts?
[/quote]

Revenant,
You put your finger on the answer right there. The operative word is, of course, 'if". If the Bible is not the word of God then internal contradictions are easily explained. Consider the portion you were referring to, for example. When the Jews received permission from Cyrus the Persian to return to Israel, here's what 2 Chron. 36:22, 23 says,

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

"Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia,
The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? His God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem.
"

This is the last verse of the book. What an odd way to end the book, one would think. What are the Jews supposed to do in Israel?

The answer is given in the next book, Ezra. Ezra 1: 1-4 says,

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

"Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia,
The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? His God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem,
which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem. And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem."

The highlighted portions are identical. Someone, possibly a sleepy copyist, grafted the first 3 verses of Ezra on to the end of 2 Chronicles a long time ago and it has been received as Holy Writ ever since. If editing errors can be mistaken for the Word of God, what confidence do we have in the rest of the scriptures?

Doc
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10-04-2013, 06:14 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
All your assertions are based on the assumption that the Bible is literally inerrant. This is a claim that the Bible never makes.

With this key piece of understanding - that is, that the Bible has literal errors such as science, math, and "typos" - then your ENTIRE argument falls to pieces.

The Bible makes the claim that it's inspired.

Inspired by whom? God, of course.

So... what was God's word inspired for ie the reason?

To teach science? No... there is no such attempt in the Bible.
To teach math? Again... no.

So... then what?

It teaches us about God, His plan, His characterstics, our covenant relationship with Him, and to a lesser degree; the history of His interactions with us.

I challenge you to find scripture that lines up with assertions that the Bible is literally inerrant.

Until then, your arguments do not hold up.

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10-04-2013, 06:25 PM
DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 06:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  All your assertions are based on the assumption that the Bible is literally inerrant. This is a claim that the Bible never makes.

With this key piece of understanding - that is, that the Bible has literal errors such as science, math, and "typos" - then your ENTIRE argument falls to pieces.

The Bible makes the claim that it's inspired.

Inspired by whom? God, of course.

So... what was God's word inspired for ie the reason?

To teach science? No... there is no such attempt in the Bible.
To teach math? Again... no.

So... then what?

It teaches us about God, His plan, His characterstics, our covenant relationship with Him, and to a lesser degree; the history of His interactions with us.

I challenge you to find scripture that lines up with assertions that the Bible is literally inerrant.

Until then, your arguments do not hold up.

KC, for reference could you please point out to us those places in scripture that claim inspiration from god?
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10-04-2013, 06:38 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2013 04:46 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
I'd like to know where the Bible claims it was "inspired", where that initial claim was made, by whom, and in what context, and how it makes sense that that claim was in a Bible text BEFORE there even exited a "ta biblia", which was non-unanimously VOTED into a canon centuries after the texts were written, and how the canon formation then makes sense if the votes were non-unanimous, and the criteria for at least some of it was , (Eusebius) that there are 4 winds and 4 columns on which the earth stands. Paul never claimed his letters were "inspired", and to this day, various sects disagree about what belongs in it or out of it. Neither did any of the actual writers claim "inspiration". So who cooked up that concept, and exactly when.

The Tribe of Benjamin was one of their favorite whipping boys, as along with Judah, it was one of the two Southern tribes, which kept trying to assert it dominance, and pre-eminence.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...olden+calf

Was the assembly of JEPD by R "inspired". Was the pair of scissors where they cut up JEP and just happened to find D "inspired".
I need some magic scissors.

When (St.) Jerome said all "scripture" was beneficial, there was no canon. All he meant was that ALL "holy" writing was beneficial.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-04-2013, 06:47 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
2 Timothy 3:16

Verse here.

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10-04-2013, 06:49 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 06:47 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  2 Timothy 3:16

Verse here.

So then the mistakes are his fault as well then?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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