DNA, semantics, and mind
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20-04-2015, 07:08 AM
DNA, semantics, and mind
Having trouble with a very obnoxious theist who is pressing on evolution. The basic claim is that DNA contains semantic instructions and only minds create such meaning (hence god). So my questions are does DNA hold semantic information? What does that mean? And if it does can we account for semantics without mind?

For completeness I include his current comment that I'm trying to deal with (minus as much of the insulting nonsense as possible):

Quote:The source of all Language, communication, and semantic instructions/commands in the Genome Program of Life:
The information/instructions/commands in view in biological systems are the SEMANTIC COMMANDS between the Sender and Receiver of the instructions which both must understand. In the Genome Program of Life for every Kind of organism, the Sender is God who used a chemical based medium i.e. A,G,C,T in DNA and inc. U for RNA. The Genome Program of life has this code specified by the billions of base pairs that the RECEIVERS which are nano-scaled biological machines that translate and obey the commands that God specified. This highly ordered system can’t tolerate noise pollution; it has systems [“blue prints”] to compare to remove errors. Mutations are 100% deleterious or neutral and can’t produce semantic commands or specify a program.

Gene duplication, transposons and polyploidy are methods by which existing semantic commands are utilized and are not the source of Semantic Instructions. Information can’t exist without intelligence. Language is not material; it is immaterial. Einstein's Gulf says materialism cannot cross over to ideas, instruction, emotion, opinion, language. These things can only come from GOD who is the intelligence/being that made humans in his likeness to have these abilities.

Chemical reactions are by design as God purposed. What behaves predictably, and purposefully is by design.

“In molecular biology, various kinds of mutations introduce the equivalent of noise pollution of the original instructive message. Communication theory goes to extraordinary lengths to prevent noise pollution of signals of all kinds. Given this longstanding struggle against noise contamination of meaningful algorithmic messages, it seems curious that the central paradigm of biology today attributes genomic messages themselves solely to noise.” David L. Abel and Jack T. Trevors, “Three Subsets of Sequence Complexity and Their Relevance to Biopolymeric Information,” Theoretical Biology & Medical Modelling, Vol. 2, 11 August 2005, p. 10. (Also available at http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/29.)

"The basic flaw of all evolutionary views is the origin of the information in living beings. It has never been shown that a coding system and semantic information could originate by itself in a material medium, and the information theorems predict that this will never be possible. A purely material origin of life is thus precluded." Gitt, p.124. Werner Gitt, In the Beginning Was Information, 2nd edition (Bielefeld, Germany: CLV, 2000)"

SEMANTIC INFORMATION/COMMANDS IN THE GENOME PROGRAM OF LIFE COULD ONLY COME FROM THE MIND OF GOD

“Biochemical systems are exceedingly complex, so much so that the chance of their being formed through random shufflings of simple organic molecules is exceedingly minute, to a point indeed where it is insensibly different from zero.” Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 3.

“No matter how large the environment one considers, life cannot have had a random beginning. Troops of monkeys thundering away at random on typewriters could not produce the works of Shakespeare, for the practical reason that the whole observable universe is not large enough to contain the necessary monkey hordes, the necessary typewriters, and certainly the waste paper baskets required for the deposition of wrong attempts. The same is true for living material.” Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 148.

“From the beginning of this book we have emphasized the enormous information content of even the simplest living systems. The information cannot in our view be generated by what are often called ‘natural’ processes, as for instance through meteorological and chemical processes occurring at the surface of a lifeless planet. As well as a suitable physical and chemical environment, a large initial store of information was also needed. We have argued that the requisite information came from an ‘intelligence’, the beckoning spectre.” Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 150.

“Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random is so utterly minuscule as to make the random concept absurd, it becomes sensible to think that the favourable properties of physics on which life depends are in every respect deliberate.” Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 141.

“... there is enough information capacity in a single human cell to store the Encyclopaedia Britannica, all 30 volumes of it, three or four times over. ... There is enough storage capacity in the DNA of a single lily seed or a single salamander sperm to store the Encyclopaedia Britannica 60 times over. Some species of the unjustly called ‘primitive’ amoebas have as much information in their DNA as 1,000 Encyclopaedia Britannicas.” Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, pp. 116–117.

“All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it.” Lee Spetner, Not by Chance (Brooklyn, New York: The Judaica Press, Inc., 1996), p. 138.

“Noncoding RNAs (ncRNAs) [so-called junk RNA] have been found to have roles in a great variety of processes, including transcription regulation, chromosome replication, RNA processing and modification, messenger RNA stability and translation, and even protein degradation and translocation. Recent studies indicate that ncRNAs are far more abundant and important than initially imagined.” Gisela Storz, “An Expanding Universe of Noncoding RNAs,” Science, Vol. 296, 17 May 2002, p. 1260.

“The term ‘junk DNA’ is a reflection of our ignorance.” Gretchen Vogel, “Why Sequence the Junk?” Science, Vol. 291, 16 February 2001, p. 1184.

“... non-gene sequences [what evolutionists called ‘junk DNA’] have regulatory roles.” John M. Greally, “Encyclopaedia of Humble DNA,” Nature, Vol. 447, 14 June 2007, p. 782.

Source of Semantic Instructions/Commands in the Genome Program of Life and its corruption since creation.

Semantic instruction/commands are between a sender [God or humans that specify the commands by a communication code utilizing a medium] and the receiver/s [biological machines or electro-mechanical machines such as a PC, PLC etc as an analogy using machines contrived by humans]. Semantic commands/instructions inside every cell is not a prediction of the patently absurd and ridiculous atheistic pseudoscience/notion of materialism/naturalism/evolutionism i.e. the atheistic dogma/philosophy of mindless and lifeless chemical explanations only without a superior intelligence/being we call God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00vBqYDBW5s Programming of Life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiWTFEqV804 Genetic Instructions: Science in the Bible that modern Science has confirmed

The semantic commands/instructions in the genome program of life written for every kind of organism were only once specified during the creation week by God. Since man's rebellion, corruption of the genome/DNA [mutational load of approximately 4600 cataloged mutations] has occurred. The defects, disease, syndromes, deformities, and deaths that occur due to these "mutations" are post creation and possibly mostly attributable to human foolishness either ignorant or deliberate .i.e. aberrant sexuality, abject hygiene, forbidden diets and abuses of drugs, exposure to man-made compounds/drugs and industrial environmental exposure to carcinogens, mutagens, etc.
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20-04-2015, 07:18 AM
RE: DNA, semantics, and mind
There is no semantic meaning in DNA. Evolution is an entirely mechanical and mindless process. It is chemistry.

He is looking at an end product and not the process - he does not understand how it works and never will with his presupposition of 'mind'.

Tell him to read a book. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-04-2015, 07:33 AM (This post was last modified: 20-04-2015 10:08 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: DNA, semantics, and mind
(20-04-2015 07:08 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  Having trouble with a very obnoxious theist who is pressing on evolution. The basic claim is that DNA contains semantic instructions and only minds create such meaning (hence god). So my questions are does DNA hold semantic information? What does that mean? And if it does can we account for semantics without mind?

For completeness I include his current comment that I'm trying to deal with (minus as much of the insulting nonsense as possible):

Quote:The source of all Language, communication, and semantic instructions/commands in the Genome Program of Life:
The information/instructions/commands in view in biological systems are the SEMANTIC COMMANDS between the Sender and Receiver of the instructions which both must understand. In the Genome Program of Life for every Kind of organism, the Sender is God who used a chemical based medium i.e. A,G,C,T in DNA and inc. U for RNA. The Genome Program of life has this code specified by the billions of base pairs that the RECEIVERS which are nano-scaled biological machines that translate and obey the commands that God specified. This highly ordered system can’t tolerate noise pollution; it has systems [“blue prints”] to compare to remove errors. Mutations are 100% deleterious or neutral and can’t produce semantic commands or specify a program.

Gene duplication, transposons and polyploidy are methods by which existing semantic commands are utilized and are not the source of Semantic Instructions. Information can’t exist without intelligence. Language is not material; it is immaterial. Einstein's Gulf says materialism cannot cross over to ideas, instruction, emotion, opinion, language. These things can only come from GOD who is the intelligence/being that made humans in his likeness to have these abilities.

Chemical reactions are by design as God purposed. What behaves predictably, and purposefully is by design.

“In molecular biology, various kinds of mutations introduce the equivalent of noise pollution of the original instructive message. Communication theory goes to extraordinary lengths to prevent noise pollution of signals of all kinds. Given this longstanding struggle against noise contamination of meaningful algorithmic messages, it seems curious that the central paradigm of biology today attributes genomic messages themselves solely to noise.” David L. Abel and Jack T. Trevors, “Three Subsets of Sequence Complexity and Their Relevance to Biopolymeric Information,” Theoretical Biology & Medical Modelling, Vol. 2, 11 August 2005, p. 10. (Also available at http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/29.)

"The basic flaw of all evolutionary views is the origin of the information in living beings. It has never been shown that a coding system and semantic information could originate by itself in a material medium, and the information theorems predict that this will never be possible. A purely material origin of life is thus precluded." Gitt, p.124. Werner Gitt, In the Beginning Was Information, 2nd edition (Bielefeld, Germany: CLV, 2000)"

SEMANTIC INFORMATION/COMMANDS IN THE GENOME PROGRAM OF LIFE COULD ONLY COME FROM THE MIND OF GOD

“Biochemical systems are exceedingly complex, so much so that the chance of their being formed through random shufflings of simple organic molecules is exceedingly minute, to a point indeed where it is insensibly different from zero.” Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 3.

“No matter how large the environment one considers, life cannot have had a random beginning. Troops of monkeys thundering away at random on typewriters could not produce the works of Shakespeare, for the practical reason that the whole observable universe is not large enough to contain the necessary monkey hordes, the necessary typewriters, and certainly the waste paper baskets required for the deposition of wrong attempts. The same is true for living material.” Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 148.

“From the beginning of this book we have emphasized the enormous information content of even the simplest living systems. The information cannot in our view be generated by what are often called ‘natural’ processes, as for instance through meteorological and chemical processes occurring at the surface of a lifeless planet. As well as a suitable physical and chemical environment, a large initial store of information was also needed. We have argued that the requisite information came from an ‘intelligence’, the beckoning spectre.” Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 150.

“Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random is so utterly minuscule as to make the random concept absurd, it becomes sensible to think that the favourable properties of physics on which life depends are in every respect deliberate.” Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 141.

“... there is enough information capacity in a single human cell to store the Encyclopaedia Britannica, all 30 volumes of it, three or four times over. ... There is enough storage capacity in the DNA of a single lily seed or a single salamander sperm to store the Encyclopaedia Britannica 60 times over. Some species of the unjustly called ‘primitive’ amoebas have as much information in their DNA as 1,000 Encyclopaedia Britannicas.” Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, pp. 116–117.

“All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it.” Lee Spetner, Not by Chance (Brooklyn, New York: The Judaica Press, Inc., 1996), p. 138.

“Noncoding RNAs (ncRNAs) [so-called junk RNA] have been found to have roles in a great variety of processes, including transcription regulation, chromosome replication, RNA processing and modification, messenger RNA stability and translation, and even protein degradation and translocation. Recent studies indicate that ncRNAs are far more abundant and important than initially imagined.” Gisela Storz, “An Expanding Universe of Noncoding RNAs,” Science, Vol. 296, 17 May 2002, p. 1260.

“The term ‘junk DNA’ is a reflection of our ignorance.” Gretchen Vogel, “Why Sequence the Junk?” Science, Vol. 291, 16 February 2001, p. 1184.

“... non-gene sequences [what evolutionists called ‘junk DNA’] have regulatory roles.” John M. Greally, “Encyclopaedia of Humble DNA,” Nature, Vol. 447, 14 June 2007, p. 782.

Source of Semantic Instructions/Commands in the Genome Program of Life and its corruption since creation.

Semantic instruction/commands are between a sender [God or humans that specify the commands by a communication code utilizing a medium] and the receiver/s [biological machines or electro-mechanical machines such as a PC, PLC etc as an analogy using machines contrived by humans]. Semantic commands/instructions inside every cell is not a prediction of the patently absurd and ridiculous atheistic pseudoscience/notion of materialism/naturalism/evolutionism i.e. the atheistic dogma/philosophy of mindless and lifeless chemical explanations only without a superior intelligence/being we call God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00vBqYDBW5s Programming of Life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiWTFEqV804 Genetic Instructions: Science in the Bible that modern Science has confirmed

The semantic commands/instructions in the genome program of life written for every kind of organism were only once specified during the creation week by God. Since man's rebellion, corruption of the genome/DNA [mutational load of approximately 4600 cataloged mutations] has occurred. The defects, disease, syndromes, deformities, and deaths that occur due to these "mutations" are post creation and possibly mostly attributable to human foolishness either ignorant or deliberate .i.e. aberrant sexuality, abject hygiene, forbidden diets and abuses of drugs, exposure to man-made compounds/drugs and industrial environmental exposure to carcinogens, mutagens, etc.

DNA is not "semantics". It's not "billions of base pairs". There are 4 (or 5) base pains and their SEQUENCE is the code. He's making many uses of the fallacy of the false analogy to spread his woo woo. The FIRST thing he has to do, in claiming "god done it" is to prove there is a god. He can't do that. He clearly has no clue how genetics works. If "god is sending information", why does he get it so horribly wrong so much ? Tell him to google "anencephalic baby" and look at his mighty creator's mistakes. Fuck.

""The basic flaw of all evolutionary views is the origin of the information in living beings. It has never been shown that a coding system and semantic information could originate by itself in a material medium, and the information theorems predict that this will never be possible. A purely material origin of life is thus precluded." Gitt, p.124. Werner Gitt, In the Beginning Was Information, 2nd edition (Bielefeld, Germany: CLV, 2000)" is simply false and a complete lie. Evolutionary Biologists know exactly how that could have happened.

"Since man's rebellion, corruption of the genome/DNA [mutational load of approximately 4600 cataloged mutations] has occurred. The defects, disease, syndromes, deformities, and deaths that occur due to these "mutations" are post creation and possibly mostly attributable to human foolishness either ignorant or deliberate .i.e. aberrant sexuality, abject hygiene, forbidden diets and abuses of drugs, exposure to man-made compounds/drugs and industrial environmental exposure to carcinogens, mutagens, etc." ... there is not a shred of evidence to support that utter pile of shit. Dinosaurs (which existed LONG before humans) got cancer. There is no evidence that human behavior is the cause of most genetic diseases, and there are no peer reviewed medical studies that in any way support that garbage.

Tell him to watch this Nobel winner's series about how life began. No gods needed. Or tell them to come here. We'll knock the shit out of his woo.
This is the sort of garbage that Lee Stroebel and his minions are spouting these days. They're trding on the fact that many (most) people don't know much about the specifics of how DNA and mutations actually work.



Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-04-2015, 08:10 AM
RE: DNA, semantics, and mind
(20-04-2015 07:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ""The basic flaw of all evolutionary views is the origin of the information in living beings. It has never been shown that a coding system and semantic information could originate by itself in a material medium, and the information theorems predict that this will never be possible. A purely material origin of life is thus precluded." Gitt, p.124. Werner Gitt, In the Beginning Was Information, 2nd edition (Bielefeld, Germany: CLV, 2000)" is simply false and a complete lie. Evolutionary Biologists know exactly how that could have happened.

Does the video you mention cover this, or is there somewhere I can link him to show that they know?
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20-04-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: DNA, semantics, and mind
DNA is not simply data. It has informational content. The information in the genome of a species was put there by evolution.

1. Take some random information
2. Filter out anything that which does not code strongly for survival
3. What's left is information that codes for survival

It's like screen-printing:
1. Take a whole bunk of paint on one side of a screen and put a T-Shirt on the other side
2. Push the paint randomly through the screen
3. What's left is the inverse image of whatever the screen held, like a picture or text

In signal processing it is impossible to add information by throwing random data into the channel. All you can do is wash out the signal, decreasing the signal to noise ratio. However, you sure can produce information by putting random data through an information-rich filter. Natural selection is the information-rich filter for evolution. Natural selection is how information is added to the genome.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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20-04-2015, 10:14 AM
RE: DNA, semantics, and mind
(20-04-2015 08:10 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  
(20-04-2015 07:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ""The basic flaw of all evolutionary views is the origin of the information in living beings. It has never been shown that a coding system and semantic information could originate by itself in a material medium, and the information theorems predict that this will never be possible. A purely material origin of life is thus precluded." Gitt, p.124. Werner Gitt, In the Beginning Was Information, 2nd edition (Bielefeld, Germany: CLV, 2000)" is simply false and a complete lie. Evolutionary Biologists know exactly how that could have happened.

Does the video you mention cover this, or is there somewhere I can link him to show that they know?

Yes. There series does cover this. The video I posted is one of a series. Szostak is a Nobel winner, and his lab works on possible origins of life. A physical cause is NOT "precluded". There is also no absolute boundary between life and non-life. For someone to say there is, proves they don't really know about viruses, or much of anything actually, (which make copies of themselves using mechanisms of their hosts.) Do they think viruses "arose" as the result of the "fall" ? hahahahaha
Bilologists do not agree whather viruses are "life" or non-life.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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