DNC Nomination Rigged
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03-11-2017, 09:40 AM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 07:10 AM)Dom Wrote:  ...
I doubt Bernie would have won, although it's possible.
...
(03-11-2017 07:33 AM)Emma Wrote:  ...
But I still doubt he would have won.
...

I have zero doubt he would have won.

I've been told I'm not close enough to it to understand US politics. I could argue that an external observer is better at distinguishing wood from trees.

There seems to be an assumption that The Dems are on the left, The GOP is on the right and therefore Independents must be in the middle. This is not my perception from opinion poll data on various social issues and fiscal stances.

Here's a little graphic I've just concocted showing what I think might be the reality.

I've also watched / listened to / read untold numbers of vox-pops and independent reports prior to and after the election. Time after time it was:
"Who will you / did you vote for?"
"Trump, he's different."
"Would you have voted for Bernie?"
"Sure, he was different + integrity"

[Image: 27yaero.jpg]

PS I've been watching Bernie's movements of late; where he has been making speeches etc. I think he's going to run again.

As a Dem or an Ind? Not sure yet.

But the recent move by various Unions calling for a Labour Party has me wondering. There's something quite Lincolnesque about things right now.

Consider

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03-11-2017, 09:47 AM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 07:25 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(03-11-2017 07:14 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Bernie would have won.
He was drawing crowds in Red states.
Hell he would have won Florida easy.

I think he would have as well. Clinton was particularly objectionable--both major candidates were. Bernie may be on the fringe of American politics, but he was not an especially corrupt or tin-eared candidate like Clinton was. Some GOP voters would have voted for Bernie just to not have Trump knowing that Bernie's brand of politics would limit how far he could get in a country that is not as liberal as he is. In other words, Bernie would have been an acceptable opponent to GOP voters who could not tolerate another round of Clintons.

Yeah, I think he would have won too. But it wouldn't have been easy in this Christian nation and Bernie being Jewish. The Russians might have gotten involved and put Bernie under the flames too.

I donno. Hind sight is 20-20 and who knows what events would have taken place if Bernie had been the Dem's nomination instead of Hillary. I wish we could hit the re-run button and see what would have happened. We can't though.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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03-11-2017, 09:55 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017 09:58 AM by DistantSecond2.)
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
I voted for Clinton in the general because her opponent was who he was Evil_monster

But I can't think of anything more frivolous than someone who perceives Democratic Party affiliation as being more important than having genuine liberal positions. It's like sports fans who 'root for the laundry.'

"Well she has a (D) next to her name, where is Sanders' (D)? Gasp, he has an (I) next to his name! Heretic! Infidel!"

Clinton may well have won the primary anyway (clinging to the scraps of the gigantic lead she had at the outset) but lets just say that Donna Brazile's revelations are superfluous. We already know. As for the idea that Trump would have won more independents than Sanders: a baseless claim.

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03-11-2017, 10:17 AM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 09:40 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(03-11-2017 07:10 AM)Dom Wrote:  ...
I doubt Bernie would have won, although it's possible.
...
(03-11-2017 07:33 AM)Emma Wrote:  ...
But I still doubt he would have won.
...

I have zero doubt he would have won.

I've been told I'm not close enough to it to understand US politics. I could argue that an external observer is better at distinguishing wood from trees.

There seems to be an assumption that The Dems are on the left, The GOP is on the right and therefore Independents must be in the middle. This is not my perception from opinion poll data on various social issues and fiscal stances.

Here's a little graphic I've just concocted showing what I think might be the reality.

I've also watched / listened to / read untold numbers of vox-pops and independent reports prior to and after the election. Time after time it was:
"Who will you / did you vote for?"
"Trump, he's different."
"Would you have voted for Bernie?"
"Sure, he was different + integrity"

[Image: 27yaero.jpg]

PS I've been watching Bernie's movements of late; where he has been making speeches etc. I think he's going to run again.

As a Dem or an Ind? Not sure yet.

But the recent move by various Unions calling for a Labour Party has me wondering. There's something quite Lincolnesque about things right now.

Consider

I think a lot of independent/unaffiliated folks would more accurately be called apolitical and not even show up on your graph. If they appear to be liberal it is because when asked a question that sounds like "do you think we should help the poor?", the answer is going to be reflexively positive for most people. So "shouldn't government provide housing for the poor?" is going to get several positive responses from people who do not think about politics enough to worry about how a public policy to achieve that goal would work.


Most people do not think about politics in the way I or anyone commenting on a politics portion of an atheism forum do. Clinton mostly hit the right notes to be a solid Democrat, but that was the wrong approach for this election. I do think Bernie, as Trump did, would get voters just because he is different.
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03-11-2017, 10:18 AM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 09:47 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(03-11-2017 07:25 AM)BryanS Wrote:  I think he would have as well. Clinton was particularly objectionable--both major candidates were. Bernie may be on the fringe of American politics, but he was not an especially corrupt or tin-eared candidate like Clinton was. Some GOP voters would have voted for Bernie just to not have Trump knowing that Bernie's brand of politics would limit how far he could get in a country that is not as liberal as he is. In other words, Bernie would have been an acceptable opponent to GOP voters who could not tolerate another round of Clintons.

Yeah, I think he would have won too. But it wouldn't have been easy in this Christian nation and Bernie being Jewish. The Russians might have gotten involved and put Bernie under the flames too.

I donno. Hind sight is 20-20 and who knows what events would have taken place if Bernie had been the Dem's nomination instead of Hillary. I wish we could hit the re-run button and see what would have happened. We can't though.

You never can tell with the religious right--they may have seen a Jew as a sign of the second coming of Christ and voted Bernie with excited anticipation of the upcoming rapture.
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03-11-2017, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017 10:42 AM by Rockblossom.)
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 09:40 AM)DLJ Wrote:  There seems to be an assumption that The Dems are on the left, The GOP is on the right and therefore Independents must be in the middle. This is not my perception from opinion poll data on various social issues and fiscal stances.

Hah! I think you understand it better than most Americans. As a lifelong Independent somewhere close to the bottom of your graph and just touching that Libertarian oval on its left side, it looks correct. I've watched the whole political dance for a lot of years, and both parties have been edging rightward, while each new generation of voters has drifted just slightly more leftward. From an objective view, this is nutball, as it leaves a giant swath of the voting public with no party that is working for us "gray people" on the bottom.

You would think the Big Gray Mass would be ripe for a third party to swoop in and take those votes. The problem is that a new party needs to work from the bottom up - local to district to state to national - in order to build both a platform and a voting base, but the two major parties have a stranglehold on the rules and the money at the national level, and out-money and out-gerrymander any third party attempts to establish candidates at even the local level. There are Independents who win races at the local/state level, but not many.

And both major parties shake their heads at why young people seem so unmotivated to get out and vote. A lot of them (the young people) just see the whole political process as big money/big business on both sides battling for power, with neither representing their interests or their future. I reluctantly have to agree with them, and find it hard to come up with really good reasons why they should vote that don't sound lame even to me.

And: I would have happily voted for Sanders if he had gotten the nomination. Instead, I put off voting until election day (whereas I usually vote early) when I had to talk myself into getting to the polls and hold my nose while voting for Clinton. I voted for Mrs. Clinton only because I thought Trump was an even worse/more dangerous choice.
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03-11-2017, 10:53 AM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
I am one of those commie bastards and I somewhat resent that characterization. I agree with several posters above along the lines of tell me something I don't know.

Ms. Clinton was horribly flawed from the beginning. Her failure as a candidate should have been predicted by the Democratic Party but they were somewhat trapped.

For those of you like me who wish for multiple political parties one of which may reflect my real positions you have a long time to wait. We must accept this.
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03-11-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 07:14 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Bernie would have won.
He was drawing crowds in Red states.
Hell he would have won Florida easy.
He may have won the nomination, but I doubt he would have won the national election for the same reasons Hillary didn't. The same people who voted for Trump still would have. The only potential difference would have been some Bernie supporters who didn't vote at all may have gone to the polls for Bernie. Would it have been enough? I don't think so. The Trump camp was pulling shit of it's own - much of which I don't think we even know about yet - but some is beginning to come out now thanks to Mueller.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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03-11-2017, 11:01 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017 11:10 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 09:55 AM)DistantSecond2 Wrote:  But I can't think of anything more frivolous than someone who perceives Democratic Party affiliation as being more important than having genuine liberal positions.

Seriously? You don't think other Democrats are sincere if they disagree with you about what "genuine liberal positions" are?

You should know that my wife's Republican family members thought even Clinton was a socialist.

I voted for Clinton over Sanders in the primary because I agreed with her positions more than I agreed with Sanders, who was too extreme and impractical for my political tastes.
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03-11-2017, 11:06 AM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
DLJ -
Your graph shows the Democratic party leaning right. That may be correct compared with the rest of the world, but it is not correct in America. I think Independents cover the whole political spectrum more than your graph shows too. They are just dissatisfied with the state of party politics in the U.S.
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