DNC Nomination Rigged
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03-11-2017, 12:27 PM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(02-11-2017 09:33 PM)DLJ Wrote:  So the question is why is she now distancing herself from something with an "if only I'd known" position. Is it only to sell books?

Yes.
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03-11-2017, 01:20 PM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 11:54 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(03-11-2017 07:33 AM)Emma Wrote:  If Bernie would have won, it's only because people who supported Hillary would have made sure as fuck to not allow Trump in office, and would have gotten out to vote- or wouldn't have wasted their vote on a 3rd party candidate that stood no chance. Consider

But I still doubt he would have won. He'd have pushed so many independents and right-leaning votes away because he's a socialist, and ignorant people are afraid of that word.

. People don't vote for reasons that seem sensible.

That's the country's problem. It isn't the government. The government is just a mirror-image proxy of the real problem: We the People.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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03-11-2017, 01:24 PM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 01:20 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  That's the country's problem. It isn't the government. The government is just a mirror-image proxy of the real problem: We the People.

Well I don't understand people's reasons.
But for all I know they might be right.
I bought Obama's bullshit.
And Bill Clinton's.
Neither were what they advertised.
So I'm not quick to point fingers.

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03-11-2017, 01:42 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2017 02:02 PM by DistantSecond2.)
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
@Emma
I’m fine with your stated reasons for supporting Clinton. I do make one exception, though. A common talking point during the primaries that is rather risible now is the implication that voting for Bernie would be fruitless, because he could never get his liberal agenda passed. Well, a Clinton presidency would have been her playing the role of Jerusalem and the Republican Congress as the First, Second, and Third Crusades all attacking at the same time. How well she handled the Impeachment Crusades would likely have been all she “got done” as President.

I don't say that to mean that voting for her was therefore itself fruitless, only to say that one doesn't vote in the expectation that the other side will like your candidate. Did anyone on the Republican side who voted for Trump ask "Do you think the Democrats will like him?" Just the opposite.

As for Hillary's ability to campaign for other Democrats and raise money: I'm fine with Clinton supporters raising that as something under her belt as a candidate. It didn't help her in the end, though. Trump, sorry to say, was a much more energetic campaigner.

[Edit: I will admit to a certain hypocrisy on my part in my having earlier decried the rehashing of the primaries, only to then post this. I truly am "the problem with this country."]

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03-11-2017, 02:13 PM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 11:33 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(03-11-2017 11:14 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Political parties don’t even have to run primaries if they don’t want to.

There is almost nothing legally required of the parties in their methods for selection nominees. The Democrats have had nomination problems before, like the infamous 1968 Democratic convention that selected Hubert Humphrey as nominee despite his never winning a single primary.

Primaries are a facade held to convince the party members that they, too, are practicing democracy.
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03-11-2017, 02:15 PM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 11:58 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(03-11-2017 10:54 AM)Impulse Wrote:  He may have won the nomination, but I doubt he would have won the national election for the same reasons Hillary didn't. The same people who voted for Trump still would have. The only potential difference would have been some Bernie supporters who didn't vote at all may have gone to the polls for Bernie. Would it have been enough? I don't think so. The Trump camp was pulling shit of it's own - much of which I don't think we even know about yet - but some is beginning to come out now thanks to Mueller.

I don't think so.
A lot of independents were deciding between Bernie or Trump.
When Clinton won the nod they were on board with Trump.
I scratched my head wondering how you'd be split between them but I am 100% certain that Bernie would have got a LOT of the voters who voted for Obama and then went over to Trump this time.
I'm positive he would have won.
Trump would have gotten all the Trumpets still. But the very significant number of people pushed to the right by loathing Hillary would have gone for Bernie.


IIRC, in head-to-head polling in June 2016, Sanders beat Trump by 11 points or so.
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03-11-2017, 02:41 PM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 11:54 AM)JAH Wrote:  Hillary was a disaster.

Clinton won the popular vote, so she was hardly a disaster as a candidate.

George McGovern was a disaster in 1972, with Electoral College totals of 520 to 17 against him.
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03-11-2017, 02:47 PM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 01:42 PM)DistantSecond2 Wrote:  @Emma
I’m fine with your stated reasons for supporting Clinton. I do make one exception, though. A common talking point during the primaries that is rather risible now is the implication that voting for Bernie would be fruitless, because he could never get his liberal agenda passed. Well, a Clinton presidency would have been her playing the role of Jerusalem and the Republican Congress as the First, Second, and Third Crusades all attacking at the same time. How well she handled the Impeachment Crusades would likely have been all she “got done” as President.

I don't say that to mean that voting for her was therefore itself fruitless, only to say that one doesn't vote in the expectation that the other side will like your candidate. Did anyone on the Republican side who voted for Trump ask "Do you think the Democrats will like him?" Just the opposite.

As for Hillary's ability to campaign for other Democrats and raise money: I'm fine with Clinton supporters raising that as something under her belt as a candidate. It didn't help her in the end, though. Trump, sorry to say, was a much more energetic campaigner.

[Edit: I will admit to a certain hypocrisy on my part in my having earlier decried the rehashing of the primaries, only to then post this. I truly am "the problem with this country."]

It's quite possible that Clinton would have been just as mired as Sanders if she won. However, Dems in general were hoping to have better results in the House than we did. Those newly elected Dems would likely have worked better with a Clinton POTUS than with a Sanders POTUS- especially because she tried to help them with fundraising and winning their seat much more than Sanders did. Moreover, in the past Clinton has been able to work with Reps behind the scenes- even when they famously love to hate her in public.

Clinton had a good working relationship with both Dem and Rep senators during her time in the Senate and she know how to get shit done. She sure as hell was not beyond reproach, not flawless, and not entirely lovable. But at the time I felt I had good reason to believe that she would be a more effective POTUS than Sanders, and stood a better chance at winning the general.

Certainly the political environment has only grown more divisive in the last 12 months, though. It's only gotten worse. And the DNC needs to get its shit together fucking fast, because the 2018 cycle is on us. Or else we need a viable 3rd party right fucking now. So, y'all make sure to vote for your upper and lower house reps. Thumbsup
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03-11-2017, 02:59 PM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 02:47 PM)Emma Wrote:  Certainly the political environment has only grown more divisive in the last 12 months, though. It's only gotten worse.

Our system is designed to promote compromise, and it assumes people will honestly represent their various interests so compromises can be reached through intelligent discussions and tradeoffs.

However, you can't compromise with liars because they're not honestly representing people's interests. They're just trying to force others to do their will through various manipulations. Donald Trump is exactly such a liar, which is why the political environment is more divisive than ever in the U.S.
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03-11-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: DNC Nomination Rigged
(03-11-2017 02:59 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(03-11-2017 02:47 PM)Emma Wrote:  Certainly the political environment has only grown more divisive in the last 12 months, though. It's only gotten worse.

Our system is designed to promote compromise, and it assumes people will honestly represent their various interests so compromises can be reached through intelligent discussions and tradeoffs.

However, you can't compromise with liars because they're not honestly representing people's interests. They're just trying to force others to do their will through various manipulations. Donald Trump is exactly such a liar, which is why the political environment is more divisive than ever in the U.S.

Quite honestly, I feel like DT is only possible because of the polarization of extremely partisan movements- like the Religious Right, the Tea Party, the Alt-Right, and many, many, more. I'm sure there are left-ist groups that contributed, too, but at the moment, I'm a bit tired and hungry and have to leave work for the weekend so I'll let some of the rest of you fill in that gap. Tongue

But, yes, you cannot compromise with a liar who does not engage in good faith. Trump is a bad-faith politician on all fronts. Dodgy
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