Daniel 2 Prophecy
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30-04-2016, 07:24 PM
Daniel 2 Prophecy
Was Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2 a true prophecy?

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These kingdoms are not mentioned in Daniel. These are guesses based on what happened in the future. I don't know. What do you guys think?
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30-04-2016, 07:34 PM
RE: Daniel 2 Prophecy
I dunno...seems legit. Drinking Beverage

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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30-04-2016, 07:41 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2016 08:02 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Daniel 2 Prophecy
(30-04-2016 07:24 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Was Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2 a true prophecy?

No.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/chris...aniel.html
No.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ristianity
No.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...-70-weeks/

Daniel didn't write Daniel.
http://wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-boo...apocrypha/
https://explanationblog.wordpress.com/20...hadnezzar/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_2

Deuteronomy 18:10
"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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30-04-2016, 07:43 PM
RE: Daniel 2 Prophecy
Funny. In Judaism, we say that Islam is represented by stone because there's this black stone that is important to their religion at the Kabba. Christianity is represented by wood, as in the wood cross.

If the prophecy represents a ruling power that would take over that region, I'd suggest that it's Islam (the rock) and not Christianity (wood).
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30-04-2016, 08:00 PM
RE: Daniel 2 Prophecy
(30-04-2016 07:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(30-04-2016 07:24 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Was Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2 a true prophecy?

No.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/chris...aniel.html
No.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ristianity
No.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...-70-weeks/

Daniel didn't write Daniel.
http://wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-boo...apocrypha/

Thanks. I found these resources useful.
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30-04-2016, 08:20 PM
RE: Daniel 2 Prophecy
Many pre-Islamic communities had many of the customs that ended up in Islam, (just like every other religion).
http://freethoughtblogs.com/taslima/2012...estival-2/
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/a.../the-kaaba
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/pagansources.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-ha...origin.htm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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30-04-2016, 08:41 PM
RE: Daniel 2 Prophecy
(30-04-2016 07:24 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Was Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2 a true prophecy?

[Image: 2415074d8848726e9f45fa811c6cd066.jpg]

[Image: preview?path=Visuals%252FIllustrations%2...Bimage.jpg]

These kingdoms are not mentioned in Daniel. These are guesses based on what happened in the future. I don't know. What do you guys think?


The Book of Daniel is often paired with the Book of Revelation as providing the road map of future end-time events. Many alleged prophecies in Daniel were fulfilled, but is that because Daniel was a divinely inspired seer? Critical scholars see a more mundane explanation. Daniel might actually be a Jew from the Hellenistic period, not a person from the Babylonian court. His so-called prophecies were made ex eventu, or after the fact, so that he could pass himself off as a genuine seer. The book itself betrays more than one author. Chapters 1–6 were written in Aramaic, while chapters 7–12 are in Hebrew. Daniel makes many historical errors when talking about the Babylonian period, the time in which he supposedly lived. For example, he claims that Belshazzar was the son of Nebuchadnezzar, but the Nabonidus Cylinder found in Ur names Nabonidus as Belshazzar’s actual father.

Also, Belshazzar was a crown prince but never a king, contrary to Daniel’s claim. In Daniel 5:30, Daniel writes that a certain Darius the Mede conquered Babylon. It was actually Cyrus the Great, a Persian and not a Mede, who overthrew Babylon. On the other hand, Daniel writes about events of the Hellenistic era with extreme accuracy. Chapter 11, presented as prophecy, is on the mark in every detail. This leads to the conclusion that Daniel was witness to these events but not to those of the Babylonian period, on which he is vague and unfamiliar.

Scholars thus place the writings of Daniel at around 167–164 B.C., during the persecution of the Jews by Syrian tyrant Antiochus Epiphanes. The book was meant as inspirational fiction to encourage the Jews in their time of trial. Daniel did take a shot at making a real prophecy, predicting the death of Antiochus in the Holy Land. This genuine prophecy turned out to be wrong. Antiochus actually died in Persia in 164 B.C.

Traditionally ascribed to Daniel himself, modern scholarly consensus considers the book pseudonymous, the stories of the first half legendary in origin, and the visions of the second the product of anonymous authors in the Maccabean period (2nd century BCE). Its exclusion from the Prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve) was probably because it appeared after the canon for those books had closed, and the dominant view among scholars is that Daniel is not in any case a prophetic book but an apocalypse.

Daniel is one of a large number of Jewish apocalypses, all of them pseudonymous. Although the entire book is traditionally ascribed to Daniel the seer, chapters 1–6 are in the voice of an anonymous narrator, except for chapter 4 which is in the form of a letter from king Nebuchadnezzar; only the second half (chapters 7–12) is presented by Daniel himself, introduced by the anonymous narrator in chapters 7 and 10. The real author/editor of Daniel was probably an educated Jew, knowledgeable in Greek learning, and of high standing in his own community. It is possible that the name of Daniel was chosen for the hero of the book because of his reputation as a wise seer in Hebrew tradition.

Daniel's exclusion from the Hebrew bible's canon of the prophets, which was closed around 200 BCE, suggests it was not known at that time, and the Wisdom of Sirach, from around 180 BCE, draws on almost every book of the Old Testament except Daniel, leading scholars to suppose that its author was unaware of it. Daniel is, however, quoted by the author of a section of the Sibylline Oracles commonly dated to the middle of the 2nd century BCE, and was popular at Qumran beginning at much the same time, suggesting that it was known and revered from the middle of that century.

The actual historical setting of the book is clear from chapter 11, where the prophecy is accurate down to the career of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, king of Syria and oppressor of the Jews, but not in its prediction of his death: the author knows about Antiochus' two campaigns in Egypt (169 and 167 BCE), the desecration of the Temple (the "abomination of desolation"), and the fortification of the Akra (a fortress built inside Jerusalem), but he knows nothing about the reconstruction of the Temple or the actual circumstances of the death of Antiochus in late 164. Chapters 10–12 must therefore have been written between 167 and 164 BCE. There is no evidence of a significant time lapse between those chapters and chapters 8 and 9, and chapter 7 may have been written just a few months earlier again. (Wiki)

Now the good stuff:

Today the consensus of scholars understands the whole book of Daniel to be put together by an author editor who first collected traditional stories in chapters 1-6 about the boy hero Daniel showing his courage during the persecutions of exile, and added to them the visions of chapters 7 – 12 that predicted the coming end of Antiochus Epiphanes and his persecution. This kind of writing is called a Vaticinium ex eventu, a “prediction after the fact,” in which an author creates a character of long ago and puts into his mouth as predictions all the important events that have already happened right to the author’s own time and place. The language is often coded with symbolic animals and colors and dates to protect its message from the persecuting authorities. Its focus is not on predicting the future, but getting some meaning to present happenings by explaining the past events that led up to this terrible situation (Boadt 1984, p509).

To achieve such an important purpose, the authors mixed historical facts with older religious traditions and even pagan myths (Boadt 1984, p509).

It is important to note that the entire book claims to take place in the sixth century BC and to report a series of visions that come to the boy Daniel, who is remarkable for his great wisdom and his ability to receive divine revelation about the future. Very few scholars today, however, believe that this book originated in any way during the days of the Babylonian exile. And the ones who do usually have a very difficult time explaining the references to historical people and places which seem to be grossly wrong.

Darius the Mede is called the son of Xerxes in 5:31 and 9:11, both are wrong:

Darius was not a Mede but a Persian and the father of Xerxes. Belshazzar is called the king of Babylon in chapter 7 and the son of Nebuchadnezzar in chapter 5. He was neither: he was only crown prince under his father Nabonidus.

In chapter 6 Cyrus succeeds Darius as King of the Persians. This too has history backward, since Cyrus was the founder of the Persian dynasty. The author seems to be quite confused about his facts and either lived long afterward or else intended the giant bloopers to warn the audience that what follows is not intended as history but a story of faith; similar to the approach of the book of Judith (Boadt 1984, p508).

Although the book of Daniel was supposed to have been written during the Babylonian exile by an official of King Nebuchadnezzar, modern scholars date its writings to the second century BCE. The reasons for this include:

• It is listed in the writings of the Jewish canon, rather than the Prophets. This indicates that Daniel was written after the collection of prophetic books had been closed (sometime after 300 B.C.E.)
• Parts of the book (2.4 – 7.28) were written in Aramaic, which suggest a later date when Aramaic had become the common language.
• The author of Daniel used Persian and Greek words that would not have been known to residents Babylon in the sixth century BCE.
• The book contains numerous historical inaccuracies when dealing with sixth century B.C.E. Babylonian history. Such mistakes would not have been made by an important official of King Nebuchadnezzar.
• Daniel is the only book in the Old Testament in which angels are given names (such as Gabriel in 8.16 and 9.21 and Michael and 10.13, 10.21, and 12.1). Elsewhere in the Bible, names for angels only appear in the Apocrypha and the New Testament.
• The absence of Daniel’s name in the list of Israel’s great men in Ecclesiasticus.
• Nebuchadrezzar is spelled Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel, which is the way the king’s name was spelled, under Greek influence, at a later time.
• In 2.2 the Kings wise men are called “Chaldeans.” But at the time of Nebuchadrezzar, “Chaldean” would have referred to the nationality. It was only centuries later that this word came to mean sorcerer or astrologer. (Wells 2013, p 1109)

Daniel is garbage, so full of holes it should be labeled a nursery rhyme.

References:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel

Boadt, L. (1984) Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction. New York. Paulist Press.

Wells, S. (2013) The skeptics annotated Bible. New York. SAB Books, LLC

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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30-04-2016, 08:42 PM
RE: Daniel 2 Prophecy
Nope, if a text uses vague language then it allows for post-hoc interpretation which invalidates it. You're just throwing your own interpretive filter on the words and then making shit up at this point. This is pretty much what all so-called prophecies come down to, it's just an interpretive shell game played by intellectual con-artists upon the gullible.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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30-04-2016, 09:03 PM
RE: Daniel 2 Prophecy
http://infidels.org/library/modern/chris...agecontrol


Quote:Whenever critical scholars point out that Daniel's purported predictions were written after the fact, Christian believers routinely retort that they are merely showing a philosophical prejudice against the possibility of supernatural prophecy. Actually, it is not a question of philosophical presuppositions, but a question of hard evidence and inference to the best explanation. Daniel's "predictions" of events up to the desecration of the Temple in 167 BC and the beginning of the Maccabean revolt substantially came true--yet its predictions of a new invasion of Egypt by Antiochus and the Resurrection of the Dead soon thereafter totally failed. The author correctly "predicted" the rise of Alexander the Great, and the history of the Seleucid and Ptolemaic kings, but he fared far worse in his predictions that God would supernaturally slay Antiochus Epiphanes, raise the dead, and inaugurate the messianic age in 163 BC. The most likely explanation of this strange pattern is that these prophecies were first composed just before the time they started to fail by an author who had no genuine talent for predicting the future.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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30-04-2016, 09:27 PM
RE: Daniel 2 Prophecy
Thanks, guys.

I do realise that I've been making a lot of threads recently. I'm just trying to learn more so I don't get so scared whenever someone brings up some sort of "proof" of God, the Bible, or Christianity.
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