Daniel's Seventy Weeks
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23-05-2013, 04:52 PM
RE: Daniel's Seventy Weeks
(23-05-2013 02:06 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:So the Gospel writers wrote to fit the Prophecy.

And... the U.N. made Israel a nation on May 15, 1948 CE to fit the Prophecy. And churches worldwide revere a Jewish crucifixion victim to fit the Prophecy. And people are actualized, pleased and pleasured in the millions, including saved marriages, children and health to fit the Prophecy. Etc.

Do you ever follow links?

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23-05-2013, 05:01 PM
RE: Daniel's Seventy Weeks
(23-05-2013 11:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Exactly. The vocabulary, the writing style, and everything about it reflects the apocalyptic period, and it was written during the time you state, and "predated" to make it appear to be prescient. Anyone can "predict" something *after the fact*. Weeping

If you're familiar with Daniel's dream of creatures coming from the sea, then you might also be familiar with the interpretation of these representing later kingdoms (conveniently all coming about in the 2nd century BC!). How was this vision so accurate? It wasn't a vision... the writer just metaphorically described current events.

To echo your perfect line, anyone can "predict" something *after the fact*.

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23-05-2013, 05:05 PM
RE: Daniel's Seventy Weeks
(23-05-2013 02:06 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:So the Gospel writers wrote to fit the Prophecy.

And... the U.N. made Israel a nation on May 15, 1948 CE to fit the Prophecy. And churches worldwide revere a Jewish crucifixion victim to fit the Prophecy. And people are actualized, pleased and pleasured in the millions, including saved marriages, children and health to fit the Prophecy. Etc.

Hurry hurry - run!

So quick to run... backwards. No wonder christees never get anywhere. Shy

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23-05-2013, 05:27 PM
RE: Daniel's Seventy Weeks
(23-05-2013 04:48 PM)TheLastEnemy Wrote:  
(23-05-2013 02:06 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And... the U.N. made Israel a nation on May 15, 1948 CE to fit the Prophecy. And churches worldwide revere a Jewish crucifixion victim to fit the Prophecy. And people are actualized, pleased and pleasured in the millions, including saved marriages, children and health to fit the Prophecy. Etc.

One Gospel writer twisting an obscure historical event is a hell of a lot different then the creation of Israel.

And besides, you really think Yahweh would support and protect a secular,liberal democracy?

The Muslim nations that make up Israel's enemies are in fact far closer to following God's laws than Israel is.

"God's laws". How very droll. Drinking Beverage

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24-05-2013, 11:44 AM
RE: Daniel's Seventy Weeks
(23-05-2013 02:06 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:So the Gospel writers wrote to fit the Prophecy.

And... the U.N. made Israel a nation on May 15, 1948 CE to fit the Prophecy. And churches worldwide revere a Jewish crucifixion victim to fit the Prophecy. And people are actualized, pleased and pleasured in the millions, including saved marriages, children and health to fit the Prophecy. Etc.

Christianity
Christian eschatology
Eschatology views

In the Christian world there exist today four main schools of thought.[14] There are many variations within each to each of these. The following summarizes the most frequently encountered interpretations:

The consistent symbolical interpretation read the numbers in verses 24 to 27 as symbolic. In this view the 490 years begin with the edict of Cyrus in 538 BCE, which permitted the Jews to return to Jerusalem2 Chronicles 36:22-23 = Ezra 1:2-4. The first division of 7 weeks ends with the first advent of Christ. The second division is the period of the Christian church, stretching from the first and to Second Advent. The third division of one week is the last period of history—the time of tribulation caused by the Antichrist—which begins with the advent of the Antichrist and ends with his defeat.

Supporters of this view include Kliefoth,[15] who is credited to be the first to establish exegetically the symbolic interpretation. He is followed, by and large, by Keil,[16] Delitzsch,[17] Leupold,[18] Philip,[19] Grelot[20] and others.

The dispensational interpretation begins the 490 years with the permission Artaxerxes I Longimanus gave to NehemiahNehemiah 2:5-8. This is dated by most dispensationalists to 445 BCE (e.g. Sir Robert Anderson), but by some to 444 BCE. The “messiah” at the end of the 7+62 weeks is Jesus Christ, but because 7+62 = 69 weeks = 483 years from 445/4 BCE would extend to about CE 40—far beyond the lifetime of Christ—the 483 years are reduced to 476 years by interpreting these 490 years as "prophetic years" each consisting of only 360 literal days. Consequently the 483 years end with the crucifixion in CE 33 or 32. The 70th week is separated from the 69th week by a vast gap of over nineteen centuries. The entire "church age" is a gap during which the prophetic clock has stopped ticking. The 70th week does not start until the end of the church age, when the church will be "raptured” from the earth. During the 70th week the Antichrist—a revived Roman tyrant that will oppose God—will oppress the Jews and bring upon the world, during the latter half of a delayed seventieth week, a 3½ year tribulation.

The dispensational interpretation of the chronological scheme of 9:24-27 is very widely used today in the English-speaking world and beyond. Of the leading voices the following are representative JA Seiss,[21] Sir Robert Anderson,[22] The Scofield Reference Bible;[23] LS Chafer;[24] AJ McClain[25] and HA Ironside.[26]

The historical-messianic interpretation also interprets the Messiah in Daniel 9 as Jesus Christ, but it understands the 490 years as an uninterrupted, continuous unit that ended 3½ years after His death. The 490 years begin with the decree by Artaxerxes I in 458/7 BCE (Ezra 7). The appearance of “Messiah the Prince” at the end of the 7+62 weeks (483 years) (9:25) is the anointed of Jesus Christ as Messiah at His baptism in 26/7 CE. This inaugurated His public ministry. The "cut off" of the “anointed one” (9:26) refers to His crucifixion 3½ years “after” (9:26) the end of the 483 years. Thus He made “atonement for iniquity” and brought in “everlasting righteousness” (9:24). The covenant (9:27) is the covenant between God and Israel, as extended by the prophecy of Daniel 9. Jesus “confirms” (KJV) this covenant for one week (9:27) firstly by His personal ministry while on earth and secondly by the ministry of the Holy Spirit for another 3½ years after His crucifixion. He caused the cessation of the entire system of sacrifices of Old Testament times by His death "in the midst of" (9:27) the last seven years, therefore in CE 30 or 31. The last week ends 3½ years after the crucifixion when the Jews finally rejected the Holy Spirit by persecuting the people that had the Holy Spirit (Acts 8, 9). At that time the gospel was redirected from the Jews to all peoples (Acts 8 to 11). This includes the vision in which God showed Peter “that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him” (Acts 10:34-35).

The Messianic interpretation of chapter 9 has been eclipsed almost completely in historical-critical scholarship. Some of the representative voices among exegetes of the last 150 years are EW Hengstenberg,[27] JN Andrews,[28] EB Pusey,[29] J Raska,[30] J Hontheim,[31] Boutflower[32] and O Gerhardt.[33]

The historical-critical school of interpretation by liberal (critical) scholars does not find Jesus in Daniel 9:24-27 at all. The point of departure is that the book of Daniel was written during the conflict under Antiochus IV (somewhere between 168 and 163 BCE) in the form of a prophecy, but after the events described had taken place. All prophecies of Daniel point to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and no further. The “prince who is to come” (9:26) was Antiochus Epiphanes, whose armies partially destroyed Jerusalem and massacred many of its inhabitants. There are a number of variations of the critical school of thought, but all of them start the third division (one week) with the death of the high priest Onias III in 171/0 BCE. Onias was the “anointed one” who was “cut off’ after 62 weeks (9:26). It was Antiochus IV Epiphanes who stopped sacrifice and grain offering in the middle of the week (9:27) when he erected the "desolating sacrilege" on December 4, 167 BCE (15 Kislev, 145; 1 Mace 1:54). The “anointing of a most holy place” (9:24) is the rededication of the altar of sacrifice six or seven years after Onias was killed by the victorious Judas Maccabeus December 14, 164 BCE - 25 Kislev, 148; 1 Mace 4:52). The standard historical-critical interpretation is that the 70x7 weeks is an interpretation of Jeremiah’s 70 years (9:2; cf. Jer. 25:1, 12). Consequently the first 7 weeks begin with the destruction of Jerusalem in 587/6 BCE. The critical interpretation follows the Masoretic punctuation of 9:25, which put the Messiah at the end of the first 7 weeks. This messiah is Cyrus—the Persian king that set the Jews free in 539.8 BCE. The second division (62 weeks) extends from 539/8 BCE to the murder of the high priest Onias III in either 171/0 BCE.

The historical-critical school of interpretation developed in the Age of the Enlightenment and was first adopted by two Englishmen. In 1697 John Marsham[34] and in 1726 Anthony Collins[35] embraced the suggestion of the pagan Neoplatonist philosopher, Porphyry (third century AD). The historical-critical interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 became and is today the standard view of liberal scholars throughout the world.
Reformation

In Martin Luther's commentary of Daniel, Preface to the Prophet Daniel, Luther follows the day-year principle to calculate the timespan of the prophecy of seventy weeks as weeks of years. Thus, he explains that seven days in a week multiplied by seventy weeks gives 490 years.

Luther starts the prophecy in the "second year of King Darius also known as 'the long handed'",[36] in a period when Jerusalem was being rebuilt (according to Luther, also mentioned in Haggai 1:1-15; Zechariah 1:1-17). At the end of the first 69 weeks (483 years), is the first coming of Christ. From Darius, Luther calculates 456 years to Christ's birth and another 30 years to Christ's baptism (Luke 3:23), totaling 486 years. Any discrepancies in time, Luther dismisses with, "We cannot find and determine all days and hours so precisely, when we write history it is enough for us that we come pretty close, ...".

According to Luther the 70th week of the prophecy ends in the 4th year after Christ's death.[37] Luther’s is therefore a variation of the historical-messianic interpretation mentioned above.
Jehovah's Witnesses

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Artaxerxes' first year of rule was 474 BCE. Based on Nehemiah 2:1, 5-8, Nehemiah went forth to rebuild the walls around Jerusalem “in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king.” Thus, Jehovah Witness theologians have added 20 years to 474 BCE, pinpointing 455 BCE as the starting point for Daniel’s Messianic prophecy.[38][39]

Jehovah’s Witnesses agree with the day-year principle, where each “week” represents “seven years”. Therefore 69 weeks translates as 483 years of which are added to 455 BCE, the 20th year of Artaxerxes reign. That pinpoints the Messiah to the year 29 CE. To Jehovah’s Witnesses, this is a significant year because it was Jesus’ baptismal year, just three years before his crucifixion. (Luke 3:1, 2, 21, 22) The remaining week of seven years, from 29 CE, is the duration of Jesus being “cut off”. To Jehovah’s witnesses, Daniel’s prophecy is fulfilled in 36 CE.[39][40] Jehovah’s Witnesses therefore also follow a variation of the historical-messianic interpretation mentioned above.
Premillennialism

In historic premillennialism,[41] Philip Mauro (1921) proposed the discourse on the Mount Olivet (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) to be an expansion of Daniel’s “seventy weeks” prophecy. His research on the Daniel prophecy was in part, influenced by the works of Martin Anstey (1913). He fully supported the view that the decree of Cyrus, in Ezra 1:1, exhorting the Jews to return to their land, was a real event. Like many others, he agreed that the period designated by the Daniel prophesy was “seventy sevens of years” (490 years). He points to the significance of 69 sevens, interpreted as a period of 483 years, as being the length of time to the Messiah. Thus, in the remaining “seven years” the Messiah would be “cut off and have nothing”.[42] He further relates that, “the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;” (9:25) is prophetic of the “desolation” of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD (Matthew 24:1-22; Luke 21:20-24)[42] Therefore, similar to Luther and the Jehovah’s Witnesses discussed above, historic premillennialism follow a historical-messianic interpretation.

Mauro agreed with Anstey that the angel Gabriel of the Hebrew Bible, who visited Daniel, is the same angel who visited Mary in the New Testament (Luke 1:11-19; 26). He compared Gabriel’s expression to Daniel “thou art greatly beloved” as an exact equivalent to “thou art highly favored” which was spoken to Mary by her visiting angel, also known as Gabriel.[43] By establishing Gabriel as visiting both Daniel and Mary in his commentary, Mauro further expounds on the words of Gabriel: “seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to finish the transgression” (Daniel 9:24), thus making a comparison to the Christ’s words: “Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers” (Matthew 23:32). Mauro interpreted these narratives as referring to the rejection and crucifixion of the Christ.

In dispensational premillennialism, described in more detail above, a 'hiatus' which some refer to as a 'biblical parenthesis', occurs between the 69th and 70th week of the prophecy, into which the "church age" is inserted (also known as the "gap theory" of Daniel 9). The seventieth week of the prophecy is expected to commence after the rapture of the church, which will incorporate the establishment of an economic system using the number '666', the reign of the beast (the Antichrist), the false religious system (the harlot), the Great Tribulation and Armageddon.[44]
Seventh-day Adventists

Following the Historicist line of interpretation during the 19th century the Seventh-day Adventist Church interprets the 70 weeks as a 490 year period, according to the day-year principle. The first 69 weeks (483 years) begins with the decree of Artaxerxes I to rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BCE (Daniel 9:25) and ends in 27 CE. Jesus Christ's ministry begins at His baptism that year, at which time he is anointed by the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:38) in the form of a dove. Jesus is crucified in the middle of the final week (31 CE) (Daniel 9:27), and the gospel is preached to the Gentiles in 34, the close of the 70 week period.[45]

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24-05-2013, 12:35 PM
RE: Daniel's Seventy Weeks
Verily I say unto you, if it ain't Job, Ecclesiastes, nor Romans, fuck that book.

Nice link, Starcrash.

Fstrat, cite yer shit.

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24-05-2013, 12:42 PM
RE: Daniel's Seventy Weeks
(24-05-2013 12:35 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Verily I say unto you, if it ain't Job, Ecclesiastes, nor Romans, fuck that book.

Nice link, Starcrash.

Fstrat, cite yer shit.

That's a wiki copy and paste.
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24-05-2013, 01:15 PM
RE: Daniel's Seventy Weeks
Quote:If you're familiar with Daniel's dream of creatures coming from the sea, then you might also be familiar with the interpretation of these representing later kingdoms (conveniently all coming about in the 2nd century BC!). How was this vision so accurate? It wasn't a vision... the writer just metaphorically described current events.

To echo your perfect line, anyone can "predict" something *after the fact*.

The Old Testament was written at least 200 BCE (and the Septuagint is typically dated earlier, by the way, but will go with the most liberal date possible). Are you suggesting presentists wrote the prophecies describing the date of the crucifixion in 33 CE after 33?

The nation of Israel was predicted to be revived on May 14, 1948. Are you suggesting that presentists wrote the Old Testament in 1949?
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24-05-2013, 02:11 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2013 02:24 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Daniel's Seventy Weeks
(24-05-2013 01:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The Old Testament was written at least 200 BCE (and the Septuagint is typically dated earlier, by the way, but will go with the most liberal date possible). Are you suggesting presentists wrote the prophecies describing the date of the crucifixion in 33 CE after 33?

The nation of Israel was predicted to be revived on May 14, 1948. Are you suggesting that presentists wrote the Old Testament in 1949?

You need to look up the definition of "Presentism".
The "nation" of Israel is not the KINGDOM of Israel.
So which is it. The secular state, or a spiritual messianic age, which has not yet come fully to fruition ? Make up your mind.

It's also mostly secular Jews and Arabs. No temple. No sacrifices. No high priest. You can't possibly be saying a prophet had THAT in mind. Weeping
Was was that date ? Are you finally going to consult your crystal "soothsaying" ball and reveal THE date, Madame Pleasy Zelda ?

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24-05-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: Daniel's Seventy Weeks
(24-05-2013 12:35 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Verily I say unto you, if it ain't Job, Ecclesiastes, nor Romans, fuck that book.

Nice link, Starcrash.

Fstrat, cite yer shit.

It was a wikipedia cut and paste for PJ.

He doesn't seem to be able to follow any links.

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