Dark Matter
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26-03-2012, 03:20 PM
RE: Dark Matter
(26-03-2012 02:52 PM)Grassy Knoll Wrote:  Here's a great video that helped me understand the dark matter/energy quandary :
http://www.ted.com/talks/patricia_burcha...nergy.html

On the subject of books, I highly suggest 'The Adventurers Guide to the Universe' by Milo Wolff. That book is really good at explaining why we know what we know about the universe and the history of current theories. Starts off simple and gets a little complicated towards the end with his new idea of space resonance theory. I enjoyed it.
That video Was great. Thank You very much.

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26-03-2012, 03:38 PM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2012 04:12 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Dark Matter
(26-03-2012 02:52 PM)Grassy Knoll Wrote:  Here's a great video that helped me understand the dark matter/energy quandary :
http://www.ted.com/talks/patricia_burcha...nergy.html

On the subject of books, I highly suggest 'The Adventurers Guide to the Universe' by Milo Wolff. That book is really good at explaining why we know what we know about the universe and the history of current theories. Starts off simple and gets a little complicated towards the end with his new idea of space resonance theory. I enjoyed it.
Damn, that lady says dark matter doesn't emit any electromagnetic spectrum or interact with it. And frankly, it curls my toes with disagreement, I know it was filmed before 2009, but still, the opinion in the field hasn't changed much. There's a mysterious radio noise in the universe, outside and inside of galaxy. In this context, I think believing (and public teaching) that DM can not radiate in EM spectrum throws us several decades back in terms of astronomic progress.
We should instead entertain that possibility and find out ways to test it. We think of radio waves as a 1-dimensional signal, that is, sound. But it might be actually the long-lost light of "dark" matter, a possible key to its electro-magnetic interactive nature.
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26-03-2012, 07:02 PM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2012 07:26 PM by Grassy Knoll.)
RE: Dark Matter
(26-03-2012 03:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Damn, that lady says dark matter doesn't emit any electromagnetic spectrum or interact with it. And frankly, it curls my toes with disagreement, I know it was filmed before 2009, but still, the opinion in the field hasn't changed much. There's a mysterious radio noise in the universe, outside and inside of galaxy. In this context, I think believing (and public teaching) that DM can not radiate in EM spectrum throws us several decades back in terms of astronomic progress.
We should instead entertain that possibility and find out ways to test it. We think of radio waves as a 1-dimensional signal, that is, sound. But it might be actually the long-lost light of "dark" matter, a possible key to its electro-magnetic interactive nature.
Interesting. I think a lot of things have reached a stall in physics because the 'big bang' model of the universe may not be the correct one. I wish I was well versed enough with this stuff to be able to make valid arguments against it because I've always had a hang up with the idea that everything in the universe came from essentially nothing. Or something to that effect. There are a couple of unorthodox ideas that seem to be ignored by the mainstream like the electrical nature of the cosmos and this idea of space resonance. Incidentally, I erred the title of Milo Wolff's book -it's 'Exploring the Physics of the Unknown Universe: An Adventurer's Guide'.

I imagine with better ways of measuring things will soon follow with better ideas of how things really tick. I can't wait to see it all unfold! Drinking Beverage
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26-03-2012, 07:49 PM
RE: Dark Matter
Is it possible that there is an assumption that our Universe (Big Bang resultant system) is all there is?

Is it possible that they aren't accounting for all the matter and gravity that probably exist outside of our own Universe and consequently would be pulling the matter of our Universe away from the center of our Universe?
Is it possible the extra noise is the noise throughout space (not just within our Universe), the reminance of an infinite amount of big bangs that have occurred previously near this location of space?
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26-03-2012, 08:11 PM
RE: Dark Matter
(26-03-2012 07:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Is it possible that there is an assumption that our Universe (Big Bang resultant system) is all there is?

Is it possible that they aren't accounting for all the matter and gravity that probably exist outside of our own Universe and consequently would be pulling the matter of our Universe away from the center of our Universe?
Is it possible the extra noise is the noise throughout space (not just within our Universe), the reminance of an infinite amount of big bangs that have occurred previously near this location of space?
It's not really an assumption, it's just that there is no proof for anything else yet. There isn't really anything pointing to anything else yet that can be shown. The closest we have are the many-universe thing and some others, but I don't think any of them has enough traction yet to be considered a full theory. Even if they were, it might be on the math and predictions alone, so could still change. I don't think proof of other universes are going to come anytime soon, but if it did, science would blow up really fast we would be lost on what our kids were learning. Seriously, you think computers are hard for some people that have never seen them, imagine mapping out an entire other universe. I personally don't believe there is one, but would so be on the bandwagon if we had some conclusive evidence of alternate universes.

Luminon, if you have ideas of how you think things should be, then study up, because someone needs to figure things out and the more people work on it, the better. I go through tons of information, and can't deny that that is the most accurate model, but like you feel that something is definitely missing... something big, but the only starting points are quantum and dark. Things that are fucking difficult to study. I go over gravity more to see what I can come up with, but nothing new to add and end up back where Einstein was with bending of space even though there has to be something missing... the problem is where? Where do we look? The data points to what we have now as models, so where do we look for more data? What are we missing in the current data that can tell us more? It's a mind boggling complex problem that for some reason reminds me of the complicated planet trajectories before they realized that the Earth and planets traveled around the Sun. Then the math became much easier to deal with. It's probably something just as simple, but just as hard to see to us on this little speck floating in space. Someone will see it one day. Hopefully while we are alive. It's probably something so fucking simple, that we'll all wonder why the fuck we didn't see it. It's hard to tell, because we don't see it now. It might just be super complex too. Who knows? Maybe we never will.

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26-03-2012, 09:35 PM
RE: Dark Matter
(26-03-2012 08:11 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  It's not really an assumption, it's just that there is no proof for anything else yet. There isn't really anything pointing to anything else yet that can be shown. The closest we have are the many-universe thing and some others, but I don't think any of them has enough traction yet to be considered a full theory. Even if they were, it might be on the math and predictions alone, so could still change. I don't think proof of other universes are going to come anytime soon, but if it did, science would blow up really fast we would be lost on what our kids were learning. Seriously, you think computers are hard for some people that have never seen them, imagine mapping out an entire other universe. I personally don't believe there is one, but would so be on the bandwagon if we had some conclusive evidence of alternate universes.
I was just wondering if anyone knew if someone had created a theoretical model, assuming that space was infinite and eternal and that there were an infinite amount of big bangs happening throughout the vastness of space over the vastness of eternal "time".
Whether this theoretical model could account for the mathematical problems that dark matter/dark energy was created to fill?

To me it would seem incredibly strange to think that there is just one universe in all of space. Space being a three dimensional coordinate system with no boundaries and hence infinite.

Our own universe, started expanding from a point in time over 14 billion years ago, hence its size (energy/matter) is somewhat spherical with a radius of 14 or so billion light years. As big as this may seem it is small in relation to the infinite size of space. The gravitational size of our universe might be much bigger than the energy/matter size. The energy/matter may have been in this part of space for a substantial amount of time prior to the big bang event however it will still be smaller than space itself. It is expected that our universe will continue to expand forever and not contract, so will virtually dissipate out into nothingness.

Doesn't it strike you as weird that there would be nothing, then all of a sudden one big bang which goes on for a limited timeframe and then nothing again for all eternity. I think this view is incompatible with atheism. If the conditions within space existed for one big bang then they would exist for other big bangs, throughout space, throughout time. If this has been going on for eternity then we would expect our universe to be affected by the gravity of other universes, we would expect to have noise in our volume of space that is not attributed to our big bang instance.

I know that reality is weirder that we expect and that I am just speculating here, but surely if someone can dream up dark matter.dark energy then they can dream up an eternity of infinite space and infinite big bangs and model how this might solve the same problem.
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26-03-2012, 09:52 PM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2012 09:58 PM by craniumonempty.)
RE: Dark Matter
(26-03-2012 09:35 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(26-03-2012 08:11 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  It's not really an assumption, it's just that there is no proof for anything else yet. There isn't really anything pointing to anything else yet that can be shown. The closest we have are the many-universe thing and some others, but I don't think any of them has enough traction yet to be considered a full theory. Even if they were, it might be on the math and predictions alone, so could still change. I don't think proof of other universes are going to come anytime soon, but if it did, science would blow up really fast we would be lost on what our kids were learning. Seriously, you think computers are hard for some people that have never seen them, imagine mapping out an entire other universe. I personally don't believe there is one, but would so be on the bandwagon if we had some conclusive evidence of alternate universes.
I was just wondering if anyone knew if someone had created a theoretical model, assuming that space was infinite and eternal and that there were an infinite amount of big bangs happening throughout the vastness of space over the vastness of eternal "time".
Whether this theoretical model could account for the mathematical problems that dark matter/dark energy was created to fill?

To me it would seem incredibly strange to think that there is just one universe in all of space. Space being a three dimensional coordinate system with no boundaries and hence infinite.

Our own universe, started expanding from a point in time over 14 billion years ago, hence its size (energy/matter) is somewhat spherical with a radius of 14 or so billion light years. As big as this may seem it is small in relation to the infinite size of space. The gravitational size of our universe might be much bigger than the energy/matter size. The energy/matter may have been in this part of space for a substantial amount of time prior to the big bang event however it will still be smaller than space itself. It is expected that our universe will continue to expand forever and not contract, so will virtually dissipate out into nothingness.

Doesn't it strike you as weird that there would be nothing, then all of a sudden one big bang which goes on for a limited timeframe and then nothing again for all eternity. I think this view is incompatible with atheism. If the conditions within space existed for one big bang then they would exist for other big bangs, throughout space, throughout time. If this has been going on for eternity then we would expect our universe to be affected by the gravity of other universes, we would expect to have noise in our volume of space that is not attributed to our big bang instance.

I know that reality is weirder that we expect and that I am just speculating here, but surely if someone can dream up dark matter.dark energy then they can dream up an eternity of infinite space and infinite big bangs and model how this might solve the same problem.

In some ways, the explanation makes sense, but until you redefine time (and have a reason to do so), then there is no better explanation. Look at how science defines time, and you will understand why they can't go beyond the big bang. Not that they don't try. Many people do, but it requires redefining time which is no small matter... lol, get it. Matter. Sorry, corny joke... Whatever model comes will probably be overturned once there is solid evidence. I don't think there will be any other valid models unless there is more data to show first to build off of. That is unless you can find a flaw in current data. That would help too, because then you could make predictions on where to look next. If they find something that matches the data, then science advances.. like I said though, could be hugely complicated...

As far as other big bang events, I'm sure there are people in some countries with Hindu that study for that, because I think that's what some of their beliefs state (I think), so they would probably want that to be proven to further their own religion. Not saying we shouldn't test for it, but what do we look for that can be agreed would point to a prior big bang event that wouldn't be drowned out by the current one? We just barely mapped what we have now and may have more to come. I actually can't wait for the tests from the high energy particles in space and the results they find from that. That might show something, but it's hard to say yet.

"I think this view is incompatible with atheism." What did you mean by this? Atheists make no claim about how the universe works... or anything actually. Just that there is no belief in gods. Not sure how not knowing affects lack of belief... any more, I mean.

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26-03-2012, 10:12 PM
RE: Dark Matter
(26-03-2012 09:52 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  In some ways, the explanation makes sense, but until you redefine time (and have a reason to do so), then there is no better explanation. Look at how science defines time, and you will understand why they can't go beyond the big bang.


"I think this view is incompatible with atheism." What did you mean by this? Atheists make no claim about how the universe works... or anything actually. Just that there is no belief in gods. Not sure how not knowing affects lack of belief... any more, I mean.
It is not because of the definition of time that they cannot go backwards to before the big bang. The reason is because the big bang changed everything. The current motion of energy and matter is because of the big bang. We cannot know what energy and matter was doing prior to that event.

I say it is incompatible because in my opinion one off events require something magical. If we consider existence to be a result of autonomous conditions, then you must posture that those conditions that created our big bang event are not unique.
In a way it would be like saying there is only one planet or only one star or only one solar system or only one galaxy or only on universe.
I am not postulating multidimensional parallel universes, just similar universes throughout the infinity of space.
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27-03-2012, 05:45 AM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2012 04:43 AM by Filox.)
RE: Dark Matter
What, you guys never heard of the Dark side of the Force? Tststs...

Smile

I just stumbled upon this, so here you go...

http://kellyoakes.wordpress.com/2010/01/...rk-matter/

Once, I saw a documentary in the deepest mine on Earth, 2 scientists were trying to catch the Dark Matter particle, so they needed something with zero photons. They used old deepest mine they could find, set the equipment and waited. They have also speculated that the Dark Matter passes through all other matter, that is why they were hoping to find it all the way down there. What happened, I completely forgotten, and I have no idea what was the name of the documentary.

After the test, they concluded that the Dark Matter is not the only thing missing in the Universe weight equation, so the rest of the weight they called the Dark Energy. Something like that...

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27-03-2012, 09:34 AM
RE: Dark Matter
There is still a lot to be understood about the nature of plasma and magnetism in space. I'm not sure if it's fully accounted for in most of theoretical physics? All this dark stiff could simply be plasma. It might be that an electrical engineer may know more about the universe than someone who studies the mathematical complexities of gravity.

It's a bit long but good solid stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8tqgntbjyE
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