Dat Noah Flood
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02-03-2015, 06:03 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(02-03-2015 03:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-02-2015 11:13 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Q - you officially get the uber gold medal for mental gymnastics! Are you actually proposing the rain water described in the bible story rapidly became frozen due to a rapid tilt in the earth's axis? I know you whine about name calling, but you are an idiot! Nothing else to say about this.

You are a weasel for trying to relate known and well understood facts on how ice ages and glaciers have shaped the surface terrain in places, with the bible rain/flood fable. You are one of many dishonest and evading weasels that have made this pathetic attempt to wish something so bad to be true, and then lie to all, including themselves.

Stop making shit up!

It sounds like you are unaware of theories about the poles. Animals stand erect now, frozen, chewing food, even mating.

However, discussing the polar ice caps, which scientists say existed prior to as well as after the ice ages, has only a tangential relationship to my point--that the geologic evidence for slow-moving ice sheets is pretty much the same evidence that can be used to talk about a flood(s) and receding water, silt, etc.

We have a common ground to discuss but I don't feel regarding this particular thread that TTA cares to discuss any facts.

What Chas said earlier, the differences between glacial deposition and flood deposition are very different and scientists can EASILY distinguish between these types. All this is is you constructing another fantasy to support your mythical world or you're intentionally trying to blow smoke and hope no one notices when you get called on your BS.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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03-03-2015, 06:19 AM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2015 08:48 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Dat Noah Flood
I am going to quote Goodwithoutgod's post #17 again:

Quote:2349 BCE is the purported date of the flood, that is 4k years ago, weather conditions haven't existed in the last 10k years to create Greenland, and if Greenland had existed pre-mythical flood, it would have been destroyed, never to return...oddly, that didn't happen...neither do the ice layer sampling which go back thousands of years show any sediment, or flood evidence...gee that's odd Consider perhaps the global flood didn't happen...perhaps it is based off of older Sumerian legends like most of the OT....Consider Becareful Q, you are getting into the deep end of the pool, stick with what you know... Big Grin

You apparently didn't read this or you didn't understand it. The stress from this ridiculous "global shaking" fantasy of apologists with the worldwide flood would have destroyed the glaciers. This would have been a global reset of all glacial development around 2340-50 BC (which is the date of the flood). You can backpeddle to an indeterminate time in the past and ice cores reveal nothing like this has ever happened. I will repeat this in bold -Nothing like this has ever happened you have zero evidence for this fantasy of yours, the ice core data are quite clear -and your myth is quite wrong.

I also note as you spin and dissemble you'll try to explain why your god doesn't reveal himself to anyone unless they believe, but here you are defending a story where god destroyed all life on Earth in an undeniable display of his power to saint and sinner.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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03-03-2015, 02:32 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
We're not talking about a small amount of water, like a river that carves a path over millions of years. We're talking about a massive catastrophe including a shaking of the Earth on its axis.

It sounds a little patronizing when Chas and et all say so stridently that the data supports ice ages rather than flooding. Sure, if we ignore the fact that AFTER the Noahic flood that were great epochs of settling, resettling, shifting... it's also ridiculous since Chas and others make it sound like they are skilled geologists or ice age experts. I can discuss these things from a lay perspective also, yes, however, I'm again asking for a DISCUSSION, not a drive-by shooting.

As for TheInquisition, whom I expected, Wink, I'm not promulgating a "global shaking fantasy" created by the apologists. The Bible says the Earth shook. This isn't a part of some kind of ICR theory or something...

...What should I expect? To argue the Flood with people who know so little of the Bible while pretending to be experts in both ice age and flood dynamics... I've already admitted that the evidence of science sure looks like ice covered most of the Earth. I'm also willing to look at the same data and see where Flood dynamics can account for some anomalies in the data. If you at TTA were in any way sincere, or interested (and in self-preservation, since belief in the Flood could prompt saving belief in Jesus Christ) you'd have already asked me fifteen times in this thread for my evidence for the Flood and extrapolations of the evidence in geology, etc. but you're not really interested, are you?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-03-2015, 02:46 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2015 04:17 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(03-03-2015 02:32 PM)Qlueless Wrote:  We're not talking about a small amount of water, like a river that carves a path over millions of years. We're talking about a massive catastrophe including a shaking of the Earth on its axis.

It sounds a little patronizing when Chas and et all say so stridently that the data supports ice ages rather than flooding. Sure, if we ignore the fact that AFTER the Noahic flood that were great epochs of settling, resettling, shifting... it's also ridiculous since Chas and others make it sound like they are skilled geologists or ice age experts. I can discuss these things from a lay perspective also, yes, however, I'm again asking for a DISCUSSION, not a drive-by shooting.

As for TheInquisition, whom I expected, Wink, I'm not promulgating a "global shaking fantasy" created by the apologists. The Bible says the Earth shook. This isn't a part of some kind of ICR theory or something...

...What should I expect? To argue the Flood with people who know so little of the Bible while pretending to be experts in both ice age and flood dynamics... I've already admitted that the evidence of science sure looks like ice covered most of the Earth. I'm also willing to look at the same data and see where Flood dynamics can account for some anomalies in the data. If you at TTA were in any way sincere, or interested (and in self-preservation, since belief in the Flood could prompt saving belief in Jesus Christ) you'd have already asked me fifteen times in this thread for my evidence for the Flood and extrapolations of the evidence in geology, etc. but you're not really interested, are you?

Where's your evidence?
Where's your evidence?
Where's your evidence?

BTW-They have ice cores giving precipitation rates going back for 800,000 years and there is no major flooding event in this data. You have to address the ice core data, it totally falsifies the flood myth of Gilgamesh.

I'll try to help you out here Q, if you're going to make truth claims, you have to realize two very important things:

1.The bible is NEVER a source of factual evidence, that will be dismissed as your opinion.

2.Evidence consists of peer-reviewed data that is falsifiable. It will make precise enough claims that it can be dis-proven.

The ice core data dis-proves the flood myth, that's all there is to that. There is no magic.........

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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03-03-2015, 05:13 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
*points yet again to the existence of Greenland*

Yes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-03-2015, 01:15 AM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(17-02-2015 04:25 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  My dad, who's a christian, were in the scientific mood yesterday and we talked about the flood.

Some time during the convo, I ask him
"How much would it have to rain every day for a month (that's how long it poured down for, right?) in order to cover even the highest mountains (which we both seem to remember the bible claiming)?"

He started doing the math, and the result was that it would have to rain so much that the waterlevel/height would have to in increase by about 140 meters every day.
Something which made me giggle like a girl.

Even he looked baffled by the thought of that.
But, he ended up defending it with "Well, if god created this and that, then surely he could make that (insane amounts of rain)happen too"

The math might ofcourse be wrong for all I know, but..

But, if it rained that much...

Would it be safe to go outside?
Would people drown from the downpour alone in such a case?

The amount of rain it takes a day to drown the highest mountain in a month is irrelevant because in the story god made the water flood and he is in the story all powerful and could've thus easily made any amount of water appear any where at anytime. I am not saying I agree with the story I wasn't there just read an account I don't know what really happened and how. I do however claim that you cannot possibly know for sure that it did not happen. Considering all the different ancient civilizations that have similar accounts of a flood and it having to do with a theological event as well it is perfect possible it took place.
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04-03-2015, 06:44 AM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(04-03-2015 01:15 AM)mcyowassup Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 04:25 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  My dad, who's a christian, were in the scientific mood yesterday and we talked about the flood.

Some time during the convo, I ask him
"How much would it have to rain every day for a month (that's how long it poured down for, right?) in order to cover even the highest mountains (which we both seem to remember the bible claiming)?"

He started doing the math, and the result was that it would have to rain so much that the waterlevel/height would have to in increase by about 140 meters every day.
Something which made me giggle like a girl.

Even he looked baffled by the thought of that.
But, he ended up defending it with "Well, if god created this and that, then surely he could make that (insane amounts of rain)happen too"

The math might ofcourse be wrong for all I know, but..

But, if it rained that much...

Would it be safe to go outside?
Would people drown from the downpour alone in such a case?

The amount of rain it takes a day to drown the highest mountain in a month is irrelevant because in the story god made the water flood and he is in the story all powerful and could've thus easily made any amount of water appear any where at anytime. I am not saying I agree with the story I wasn't there just read an account I don't know what really happened and how. I do however claim that you cannot possibly know for sure that it did not happen. Considering all the different ancient civilizations that have similar accounts of a flood and it having to do with a theological event as well it is perfect possible it took place.
It's based off of an actual event, a great flood in Mesopotamia in 2900 B.C., this is where the flood stories in ancient Sumeria of Gilgamesh, Utnapishtim, and Atrahasis
began.
It's sort of like me coming up with a superhero that wears red and blue with a cape, that has adamantium claws and shoots spider-webs from his hands and runs like a flash of lightning. Someone in the future could see that it's simply derived from other superhero myths of that time, but unfortunately there would be others that would believe SuperWolvaSpiderFlash really existed and all of those other superheros were fake.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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04-03-2015, 07:03 AM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(04-03-2015 01:15 AM)mcyowassup Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 04:25 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  My dad, who's a christian, were in the scientific mood yesterday and we talked about the flood.

Some time during the convo, I ask him
"How much would it have to rain every day for a month (that's how long it poured down for, right?) in order to cover even the highest mountains (which we both seem to remember the bible claiming)?"

He started doing the math, and the result was that it would have to rain so much that the waterlevel/height would have to in increase by about 140 meters every day.
Something which made me giggle like a girl.

Even he looked baffled by the thought of that.
But, he ended up defending it with "Well, if god created this and that, then surely he could make that (insane amounts of rain)happen too"

The math might ofcourse be wrong for all I know, but..

But, if it rained that much...

Would it be safe to go outside?
Would people drown from the downpour alone in such a case?

The amount of rain it takes a day to drown the highest mountain in a month is irrelevant because in the story god made the water flood and he is in the story all powerful and could've thus easily made any amount of water appear any where at anytime. I am not saying I agree with the story I wasn't there just read an account I don't know what really happened and how. I do however claim that you cannot possibly know for sure that it did not happen. Considering all the different ancient civilizations that have similar accounts of a flood and it having to do with a theological event as well it is perfect possible it took place.

...again, the, "I wasn't there so I don't know" theory is false logic. We DO know, because we are on the planet that had the mythical global flood, and scientifically, we can disprove it from a plethora of angles...I hate to spam the thread with my global myth dismantlement as many here have read it already, but since you feel "I do however claim that you cannot possibly know for sure that it did not happen." I can not just shake my head in pity and not reply. Oh yeah, you are right, there are similar accounts in ancient civilizations of flooding, .....floods happen, people get scared, people tell stories, people exaggerate....there is evidence of floods in regions, but not a Global all earth consuming flood, get the distinction? here, read...

My evisceration of the mythical flood...

The Great Global Flood

Egyptian civilization is probably familiar to most of us. Egypt’s dynastic history started with the uniting of Upper and Lower Egypt by King Menes, around 3100 BCE. The Egyptian period known as the “Old Kingdom” lasted from 2800 to 2175 BCE. During this time many of the pyramids were built. There is no record, written or archaeological, for a monster flood destroying and completely interrupting this countries infrastructure or it’s monuments such as the Sphinx, the Step Pyramid, or the Great Pyramids, which were built before ‘The Flood’. Neither were they wiped out.

China has a reasonably accurate history starting around 3000 BCE. According to texts from a Chinese book called “Shu King” and verified by archaeological records, China was undergoing a prosperous period around 2400 to 2200 BCE during the early Yaou Dynasty. They have no record of a cataclysmic flood interrupting their whole civilization and destroying the infrastructure of the country. Neither were they wiped out.

The Indus valley civilization has a well-known history dating back to perhaps 3100 BCE. By 2500 BCE there were two major cities, Mohendaro (or Mohenjo-Daro) and Harrapa, which rivaled Egypt and Mesopotamia in population and technologies. This great Civilization also encompassed maybe 100 smaller cities, towns, and villages, and didn’t fall until about 1500 BCE. They have no record of a worldwide civilization-destroying flood. Neither were they wiped out.

The Minoan civilization was probably as old as Egypt. Based on the Island of Crete, this civilization grew quickly and was highly advanced by 2500 BCE. By the middle of the second millennium it had an alphabet, used bronze tools, had pottery, textiles, advanced architecture, and had established cities around the Islands. It continued to grow and was a center for trade and culture until about the mid-1400′s BCE when it was suddenly destroyed by the violent eruption of the Thera volcano. There has been no evidence unearthed from this civilization that shows a flood destroying their whole infrastructure, at any time in their existence. Neither were they wiped out.

Trees that were completely submerged in salt water would have died, so when we look at trees that are say 10,000 years old, and not only did they live past the "mythical flood' but they show zero evidence of a flood. Can you find trees with flood evidence ? Sure, that shows there was a local flood, not worldwide, submerged flood that killed all life including vegetation. you are familiar with barometric pressure of course so you understand introducing that much magical water into our system would have wrecked it right? There is not enough water on or in the earth to cover the planet under 40 feet above the highest mountain.

The conventional flood story states that the flood waters came from rain that lasted 40 days and 40 night right? Rain appears when the atmosphere can no longer support water in the vapor phase and it becomes saturated. So normally, the atmosphere is on the brink of saturation, and the variations in temperature and pressure caused by weather fronts are capable of altering the threshold at which precipitation will form quite easily. What about the amount of water vapor suspended in air needed for the 4.5 billion cubic kilometers of water needed for the global flood? The water vapor currently in the air is only around 2-3% on average, with a maximum of 4% limited by temperature and pressure.

The change in atmospheric conditions required to support enough vapor for 112 million cubic kilometers of rain per day - about 120,000 times more than the current daily rainfall worldwide - would have rendered the air unbreathable.

Indeed, the atmosphere really couldn't sustain that much water even under the most extreme temperature and pressure conditions the planet can produce. If the conditions were right for that much water to be in the atmosphere, humans and virtually every other animal would have drowned through the simple act of breathing, as well as turning the earth into the equivalent of a pressure cooker with atmospheric pressure at nearly a thousand psi instead of the standard 14.7 or so that we have today.

How do you explain the relative ages of mountains? For example, why weren't the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians during the Flood?

Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series? Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers. [Johnsen et al, 1992,; Alley et al, 1993] A worldwide flood would be expected to leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and probably other evidence. Why doesn't such evidence show up?

How are the polar ice caps even possible? Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds and break them up. They wouldn't regrow quickly. In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern (last 10 ky) climatic conditions. The fact that greenland even exists single handedly refutes the flood.

Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors? A year long flood should be recognizable in sea bottom cores by (1) an uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detritus, (2) different grain size distributions in the sediment, (3) a shift in oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition from seawater), (4) a massive extinction, and (n) other characters. Why do none of these show up?

Repopulation issue

The global flood story requires that only eight people were left alive in 2349 BCE. This does not allow enough time for humans to repopulate the earth. In 2000 BCE only 350 years after the flood the population of the world was 27 million. To go from a population of eight to a population of 27 million in 350 years would require a population growth rate of 136.07%. That is 133% more than the fastest growing portions of the world today.

The Bible also places the date of construction on the Tower of Babel roughly 100 years after the great flood. Saying a population could go from 6 people (Noah and his wife don't count, they didn't have any more children) to enough people to build the Tower of Babel as it is described in the Bible is absurd. This tower was so great that it threatened God, so it must have been greater that the pyramid of Khufu which took 30,000 people to build. Even a growth rate of 500%, which is absurd beyond all imagination, would only produce about half the required people to even begin to think about such a construction project.


The Ark,

I won’t get into the issue of how pandas, and polar bears, and ants, and anteaters, and sloths etc etc all animals from all over the world from different continents somehow swam/flew/crawled across massive oceans to line up for the ark cruise…or what they ate, or where the poop went, or how they breathed from that tiny window, or how the different species survived from various climates and requiring specific foods. I will dabble into some building issues however;

Noah's Ark was a great rectangular box of gopherwood, or perhaps some combination of other woods colloquially referred to as gopherwood. Its dimensions are given as 137 meters long, 23 meters wide, and 14 meters high. This is very, very big; it would have been the longest wooden ship ever built. These dimensions rank it as one of history's greatest engineering achievements; but they also mark the start of our sea trials, our test of whether or not it's possible for this ship to have ever sailed, or indeed, been built at all.

Would it have been possible to find enough material to build Noah's Ark? When another early supership was built, the Great Michael (completed in Scotland in 1511) it was said to have consumed "all the woods of Fife". Fife was a county in Scotland famous for its shipbuilding. The Great Michael's timber had to be purchased and imported not only from other parts of Scotland, but also from France, the Baltic Sea, and from a large number of cargo ships from Norway. Yet at 73 meters, she was only about half the length of Noah's Ark. Clearly a ship twice the length of the Great Michael, and larger in all other dimensions, would have required many times as much timber. It's never been clearly stated exactly where Noah's Ark is said to have been built, but it would have been somewhere in Mesopotamia, probably along either the Tigris or Euphrates rivers. This area is now Iraq, which has never been known for its abundance of shipbuilding timber.

Whether a wooden ship the size of Noah's Ark could be made seaworthy is in grave doubt. At 137 meters (450 feet), Noah's Ark would be the largest wooden vessel ever confirmed to have been built. In recorded history, some dozen or so wooden ships have been constructed over 90 meters; few have been successful. Even so, these wooden ships had a great advantage over Noah's Ark: their curved hull shapes. Stress loads are distributed much more efficiently over three dimensionally curved surfaces than they are over flat surfaces. But even with this advantage, real-world large wooden ships have had severe problems. The sailing ships the 100 meter Wyoming (sunk in 1924) and 99 meter Santiago (sunk in 1918) were so large that they flexed in the water, opening up seams in the hull and leaking. The 102 meter British warships HMS Orlando and HMS Mersey had such bad structural problems that they were scrapped in 1871 and 1875 after only a few years in service. Most of the largest wooden ships were, like Noah's Ark, unpowered barges. Yet even those built in modern times, such as the 103 meter Pretoria in 1901, required substantial amounts of steel reinforcement; and even then needed steam-powered pumps to fight the constant flex-induced leaking.

-------------------------------------------------
It IS a great story MC, almost as good as goldilocks and the three bears, and like goldilocks....solidly disproven.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-03-2015, 07:15 AM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
gw/og ---

That's a solid piece there....


However - when proving something to "believers" - it's hard to understand their complete devotion to believing complete nonsense....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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04-03-2015, 07:24 AM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(04-03-2015 07:15 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  gw/og ---

That's a solid piece there....


However - when proving something to "believers" - it's hard to understand their complete devotion to believing complete nonsense....

It is a faith survival method for them; they believe "if I close my mind down and deny it the ability to think, or evaluate the evidence, I will deny the devil the opportunity to create doubt within me." I can go at great length on dismantling the flood from a multitude of angles....but all one has to do is point to the bible's story, then point to Greenland. Its mere existence singlehandedly debunks the flood. All of their tapdancing and rubbing of the ears while yelling babababbabbba and stomping their feet in order to muffle the noise of reason just makes them look ridiculous. There is nothing to debate in regards to the biblical global flood, it didn't happen.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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