Dat Noah Flood
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17-03-2015, 02:39 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(17-03-2015 11:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I see, so you have no refutations to my other nine points, only complaints that the 7/8 people would have existed when fundamentalists said there were 8 people on Earth!

http://creation.com/noah-and-genetics

I'm done, I think.

So you throw out your 9 unfounded claims and think you are done at providing evidence? Lets see, an assumption on the use of laborers, saying "could have" twice, and using population growth rates that "you heard" - WTF? I have asked before but did not get a reply, so I will ask again: Why does this story need to be 100 true historically to you? Other stories in the bible can be taken as allegory or myth to learn from, so why not this story? Why make up shit and fool yourself so bad concerning this myth? Why in 2015 can you beleive this actually happened - why? WHY?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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17-03-2015, 02:53 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
Lot of doubling of population there right Q? PUTZ!


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“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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18-03-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
None of my 10 claims are unfounded. I see no refutations here, only sophistry.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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18-03-2015, 02:13 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(18-03-2015 09:58 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  None of my 10 claims are unfounded. I see no refutations here, only sophistry.

Let's play the hermeneutic word game! In the original American idiom, "sophistry" means we aren't a bunch of sheep that believe what you say. TADA!

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Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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19-03-2015, 05:45 AM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(10-03-2015 10:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. The ark had a Designer/Architect who gave Noah some plans and commissioned the work.

So the story says. For someone who will later complain about uniformation assumptions later in this post, you're awfully credulous regarding these claims.

Genesis is no more proof of a great flood than The Odyssey is proof of Poseidon, sirens, and the cyclops.


(10-03-2015 10:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. I'm not saying Greenland isn't ancient. I'm saying that ice core measurements begin with about 2,000 layers and then uniformitarian assumptions are made for super-compacted "layers" beneath those layers...

So, stuff stops working how we think it does when it contradicts the Bible?


(10-03-2015 10:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  6. Fresh water exists today alongside seawater without mixing. There could have been layers of fresh water atop the saline water of the Flood.

Wait. Was the flood liquid water or ice? You seem to be saying it could have been anything "water".


(10-03-2015 10:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  8. There's more than enough water in the oceans if the current ocean basins as well as mountain ranges were at different heights. Extreme volcanism and etc. could have accompanied the flood, provided water flow and precipitation, etc. It was a massive cataclysm. (Yes, I know you will shout out some uniformitarian reasons why mountains rise oh-so-slowly...)

Again, stuff stops working the way it normally does because Genesis says so? I suppose sirens could exist to lure sailors to their deaths because The Odyssey says so.


(10-03-2015 10:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  10. I'd heard somewhere that except for very modern times and the advent of improved healthcare and fertility that humanity tends to double every 125 years or so (high birth rates vs. high infant mortality, war, famine, etc.). I plugged this into MS Excel now and what do you know?
...
7 people plus Noah equals 8 persons saved from a Flood (not that I can certify this date for the Flood of 1900 BCE)...

A population needs more members than that to survive. We've seen what inbreeding does to a royal line withing a few generations, yet you'll have us believe that everything was totally fine when all of Noah's biological grandchildren started having kids together.
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19-03-2015, 10:19 AM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(19-03-2015 05:45 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 10:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. The ark had a Designer/Architect who gave Noah some plans and commissioned the work.

So the story says. For someone who will later complain about uniformation assumptions later in this post, you're awfully credulous regarding these claims.

Genesis is no more proof of a great flood than The Odyssey is proof of Poseidon, sirens, and the cyclops.


(10-03-2015 10:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. I'm not saying Greenland isn't ancient. I'm saying that ice core measurements begin with about 2,000 layers and then uniformitarian assumptions are made for super-compacted "layers" beneath those layers...

So, stuff stops working how we think it does when it contradicts the Bible?


(10-03-2015 10:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  6. Fresh water exists today alongside seawater without mixing. There could have been layers of fresh water atop the saline water of the Flood.

Wait. Was the flood liquid water or ice? You seem to be saying it could have been anything "water".


(10-03-2015 10:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  8. There's more than enough water in the oceans if the current ocean basins as well as mountain ranges were at different heights. Extreme volcanism and etc. could have accompanied the flood, provided water flow and precipitation, etc. It was a massive cataclysm. (Yes, I know you will shout out some uniformitarian reasons why mountains rise oh-so-slowly...)

Again, stuff stops working the way it normally does because Genesis says so? I suppose sirens could exist to lure sailors to their deaths because The Odyssey says so.


(10-03-2015 10:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  10. I'd heard somewhere that except for very modern times and the advent of improved healthcare and fertility that humanity tends to double every 125 years or so (high birth rates vs. high infant mortality, war, famine, etc.). I plugged this into MS Excel now and what do you know?
...
7 people plus Noah equals 8 persons saved from a Flood (not that I can certify this date for the Flood of 1900 BCE)...

A population needs more members than that to survive. We've seen what inbreeding does to a royal line withing a few generations, yet you'll have us believe that everything was totally fine when all of Noah's biological grandchildren started having kids together.

Hi Robby,

1. It's not "stuff stops working" it's you need to know that the Greenland "ancient data" is assumptive beyond 2,000 years into the past. Or for your other objection, you don't deny ancient extreme volcanism nor modern pheneomena of disappearing and appearing islands and formations from volcanism, rather than that you are keeping to certain time ranges--which ranges, whenever speculation abounds, employ uniformitarian and yes, anti-Bible, biases.

2. I've never said there was a Flood of ice or melted ice. I've rather noted that one theory concerns a recent ice age precipitated by Noah's Flood, and also that it seems narrow minded of skeptic to keep shouting--yes shouting--that there was an ice age(s) but no Flood when geologic data could both support a Flood AND an ice age(s). Also, ice is made from...? I note you're not saying there are no geologic upheavals, no glaciers, no moraines, no unusual features like a Grand Canyon or flattened mesas, only that you are a member of the choir singing uniformitarian songs re: ice ages.

3. Yes, I'm familiar with the problems caused by inbreeding in modern centuries after the genetic pool God offered went through many, many generations. It's arguable, however, whether the Pharaohs and etc. experienced the same things as the Europeans later, and we tend to think in terms of Genetic Eve, not multiple Eves. By that, of course, I'm not just referring to Adam and Eve but to the fact that I know if I ask, you will tell me we came from a region in Africa genetically, and not from multiple continents at one time. Or do you disagree with all modern, established science? Drinking Beverage Not only does this indicate fewer Eves but some kind of Pangaea or Noahic catastrophe, yes? No?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-03-2015, 10:28 AM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(19-03-2015 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. I've never said there was a Flood of ice or melted ice.

You've never actually said why you keep referring to ice ages - you have proposed no theory.

Quote:I've rather noted that one theory concerns a recent ice age precipitated by Noah's Flood,

You have proposed no theory on how that would be so.

Quote:and also that it seems narrow minded of skeptic to keep shouting--yes shouting--that there was an ice age(s) but no Flood when geologic data could both support a Flood AND an ice age(s).

The geologic data does not support a worldwide flood. If you have geologic evidence that does, present it.

Quote:Also, ice is made from...?

So is water vapor. So what?

Quote:I note you're not saying there are no geologic upheavals, no glaciers, no moraines, no unusual features like a Grand Canyon or flattened mesas, only that you are a member of the choir singing uniformitarian songs re: ice ages.

No one is 'singing uniformitarian songs' - that is a straw man you introduced.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-03-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(19-03-2015 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. Yes, I'm familiar with the problems caused by inbreeding in modern centuries after the genetic pool God offered went through many, many generations. It's arguable, however, whether the Pharaohs and etc. experienced the same things as the Europeans later, and we tend to think in terms of Genetic Eve, not multiple Eves. By that, of course, I'm not just referring to Adam and Eve but to the fact that I know if I ask, you will tell me we came from a region in Africa genetically, and not from multiple continents at one time. Or do you disagree with all modern, established science? Drinking Beverage Not only does this indicate fewer Eves but some kind of Pangaea or Noahic catastrophe, yes? No?

Do you seriously believe that evolution posits that two monkeys had a human kid that was so different from it's ancestors that it couldn't breed with anything but it's siblings? The changes are gradual.
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19-03-2015, 02:10 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(19-03-2015 10:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-03-2015 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. I've never said there was a Flood of ice or melted ice.

You've never actually said why you keep referring to ice ages - you have proposed no theory.

As far as I can tell, his idea is to keep things purposefully vague and obfuscated so that they cannot be put under scrutiny or criticized. I'm actually fairly convinced that he isn't just trying to hide it from us, but himself.

Now, maybe it's just projection, but I did that a lot when I was in college. I'd "reconcile" science and my beliefs just enough to get me to stop asking questions. Maybe he's not doing that, but he's being vague to the point that I can't really tell.
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19-03-2015, 02:13 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(10-03-2015 10:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  5. I believe in natural selection and Evolution (and adaptation) so those thousands of animals would cover terrestrial development after.

How do you account for the geographic biodiversity of animals post-flood? The marsupials, for example.
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