Dat Noah Flood
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01-04-2015, 01:50 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(30-03-2015 04:51 PM)daniel1948 Wrote:  
(30-03-2015 02:25 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  For the sake of argument, let's just say that water from subterranean sources aided in a global flood. The entirety of Earth is submerged with the exception of Noah and his nautical menagerie.
Wouldn't the Egyptians, Sumerians, and Minoans (who all existed before, during, and after the alleged flood) all have either been completely destroyed, or perhaps bothered to mention it in their records? If the whole point of flooding the Earth was to kill all of the humans (the other billions of animals were mere collateral damage), that would seem like a major oversight.

But... but... but... but... but... but... but... but... but... but... but God did it so it must be true. Maybe God destroyed the whole world but put a Star Trek force field around the Egyptians, Sumerians, and Minoans to protect them because they didn't count as part of the whole world because, well, the people that wrote the Bible didn't know about Egypt or Sumeria or Minoa. Okay, so, well, they sort of knew about the Egyptians because the Israelites escaped from there, except of course they really didn't... so... well, anyway, God did it so it must be true because the Bible says so, and the Bible wouldn't lie, would it? Well, would it? Errrmmm... maybe you'd better not answer that or CotW will accuse you of letting voodoo science get in the way of a good story.

And what about the dinosaurs, anyway? Good luck getting two of every kind of dinosaur on that ark, assuming they're unclean, because if dinosaurs are clean Noah would have had to get seven of every kind on the boat. (Does anybody know? Are dinosaurs clean or unclean? Let's see, anything with a cloven hoof that chews it's cud is unclean. Or is that the other way around? I can never remember.)

Why would you need two of every kind of dinosaur on the ark? There was a mass extinction event (a Flood and subsequent Ice Age) that has been reinterpreted by uniformitarians.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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01-04-2015, 01:53 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(30-03-2015 05:30 PM)The Drake Wrote:  
(30-03-2015 01:58 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  As has been stated elsewhere, rain need not have been the sole source of water nor did the mountains need to stand at their present heights...

And has been stated elsewhere, you create circular arguments at TTA by asking me for scholarly citations then rejecting the scholars themselves.

As has been shown by science, there is no evidence for a global flood during the supposed time of the biblical "NOAH". You are right that the mountains weren't at their present heights. They may have been "a few feet shorter" than now. Or maybe taller. It's hard to say because geologically speaking it's a very short time. But we can say, based on the evidence, that what are now mountains, were under the sea many millions of years ago. Rain need not have been the sole source. But the only other source possible for the biblical flood is "magic". And there is no credible evidence for that.

Have you spent much time looking at modern events like Krakatoa and the Mt. St. Helens eruption that created/destroyed geographic landmarks rather rapidly?

I myself was beneath the Lincoln Memorial in Washington to see large stalactites that formed in a few years under the foundations that were dug in modern times.

It's hard to accept "THIS IS HOW AND WHERE AND WHY ALL MOUNTAINS FORMED" when the whole science rests on uniformitarian assumptions, assumptions that few people want to really consider/reconsider. God forbid the science show in ANY way that the Earth is young, or there was a flood event, etc. as we all know what THAT means.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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01-04-2015, 01:55 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(31-03-2015 05:29 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Since Qlueless won't provide his sources, since he knows they will be rejected, I'll provide them for him:

Ice Cores and the Age of the Earth

This article was written by Larry Vardiman a paid shill for the Institute of Creation "Research". Larry Vardiman is so prestigious that he's in the Encyclopedia Of American Loons.

In the article, he really has no evidence that contradicts the ice core age, he seems to be confused in this article about ice core ages being dated by layered precipitation rates. They are not, ice cores are dated by a battery of at least 13 different dating techniques, some of which are cross-correlated with each other and even calibrated to known past volcanic events. He actually thinks he's so clever to figure out past precipitation rates could have been different than they are now so this would throw off dates. It could, so that's why scientists use other methods to date ice cores.
Q doesn't understand this, Larry Vardiman doesn't understand this, so Q rolls around like a pig in the mud of his delusion. He finds others that make up half-baked excuses for this biblical fantasy world despite the evidence.
So Qlueless can stick his fingers in his ears and stay in his fantasy land with his loony bunch of cohorts in their fantasy circle-jerk. This is his world, the world of delusion and fantasy.

Check out this informative video on how they date ice cores:




I'd never read that article before, but I took a look now (for about five seconds, total). This was intriguing:

World War II Airplanes Under the Ice

The Greenland Society of Atlanta has recently attempted to excavate a 10-foot diameter shaft in the Greenland ice pack to remove two B-17 Flying Fortresses and six P-38 Lightning fighters trapped under an estimated 250 feet of ice for almost 50 years (Bloomberg, 1989). Aside from the fascination with salvaging several vintage aircraft for parts and movie rights, the fact that these aircraft were buried so deeply in such a short time focuses attention on the time scales used to estimate the chronologies of ice.

If the aircraft were buried under about 250 feet of ice and snow in about 50 years, this means the ice sheet has been accumulating at an average rate of five feet per year. The Greenland ice sheet averages almost 4000 feet thick. If we were to assume the ice sheet has been accumulating at this rate since its beginning, it would take less than 1000 years for it to form and the recent-creation model might seem to be vindicated.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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01-04-2015, 01:56 PM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2015 01:59 PM by TubbyTubby.)
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(01-04-2015 01:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ...Almost every ancient culture, however, has a Flood story. Not a fire story, meteorite story... a Flood story. They DID bother to mention it in their records.

Yeh because there are countless examples of cities devastated by fire or meteor strikes in the past 2000 years eh?

And how many tsunamis have been recorded in the past 50 years dumbass?

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01-04-2015, 02:21 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(01-04-2015 01:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Greenland Society of Atlanta has recently attempted to excavate a 10-foot diameter shaft in the Greenland ice pack to remove two B-17 Flying Fortresses and six P-38 Lightning fighters trapped under an estimated 250 feet of ice for almost 50 years (Bloomberg, 1989). Aside from the fascination with salvaging several vintage aircraft for parts and movie rights, the fact that these aircraft were buried so deeply in such a short time focuses attention on the time scales used to estimate the chronologies of ice.

If the aircraft were buried under about 250 feet of ice and snow in about 50 years, this means the ice sheet has been accumulating at an average rate of five feet per year. The Greenland ice sheet averages almost 4000 feet thick. If we were to assume the ice sheet has been accumulating at this rate since its beginning, it would take less than 1000 years for it to form and the recent-creation model might seem to be vindicated.

Facepalm

Okay, I admit to following the original story of the rediscovered planes(Am pretty sure all the crews were safely evacuated/rescued from their forced landing) as it was reported as I have a love for flying machines of all types and that such historic machines could be preserved and thence the herculean effort undertaken to dig them out and get them home was fascinating.

Now, the actual response to Q is. Do you understand,

A) How the ice cores are measured to determine the layers to indicate yearly cycles?

B) You are aware of the compacting nature of said weight of snow which slowly compresses itself over time down into ice?

C) (An aside) You are aware of the significant damage to all of those buried machines due to the significant weight of said snow compacting into ice over that time?

As in... you're quoting figures with out understand what those figures actually mean/apply.

Much cheers to all.
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01-04-2015, 02:24 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(01-04-2015 01:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(30-03-2015 02:25 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  For the sake of argument, let's just say that water from subterranean sources aided in a global flood. The entirety of Earth is submerged with the exception of Noah and his nautical menagerie.
Wouldn't the Egyptians, Sumerians, and Minoans (who all existed before, during, and after the alleged flood) all have either been completely destroyed, or perhaps bothered to mention it in their records? If the whole point of flooding the Earth was to kill all of the humans (the other billions of animals were mere collateral damage), that would seem like a major oversight.

What records? There is no date for the Flood in the Bible. The Egyptians existed not at all until they descended from Noah, likewise the other people groups...

...Almost every ancient culture, however, has a Flood story. Not a fire story, meteorite story... a Flood story. They DID bother to mention it in their records.

Now we have to consider whether the Bible is accurate and etc. Time to move on.

shit happens, rain falls, floods occur, stories are told, and retold and exaggerated...the point is, in the biblical parable of the mythical global flood killing all life except for a family of 8 never happened (no global layer of evidence of a global flood)....and it definitely didnt happen as per xtian doctrine at 2349 bce.

Egyptian civilization is probably familiar to most of us. Egypt’s dynastic history started with the uniting of Upper and Lower Egypt by King Menes, around 3100 BCE. The Egyptian period known as the “Old Kingdom” lasted from 2800 to 2175 BCE. During this time many of the pyramids were built. There is no record, written or archaeological, for a monster flood destroying and completely interrupting this countries infrastructure or it’s monuments such as the Sphinx, the Step Pyramid, or the Great Pyramids, which were built before ‘The Flood’

China has a reasonably accurate history starting around 3000 BCE. According to texts from a Chinese book called “Shu King” and verified by archaeological records, China was undergoing a prosperous period around 2400 to 2200 BCE during the early Yaou Dynasty. They have no record of a cataclysmic flood interrupting their whole civilization and destroying the infrastructure of the country.

The Indus valley civilization has a well-known history dating back to perhaps 3100 BCE. By 2500 BCE there were two major cities, Mohendaro (or Mohenjo-Daro) and Harrapa, which rivaled Egypt and Mesopotamia in population and technologies. This great Civilization also encompassed maybe 100 smaller cities, towns, and villages, and didn’t fall until about 1500 BCE. They have no record of a worldwide civilization-destroying flood.

The Minoan civilization was probably as old as Egypt. Based on the Island of Crete, this civilization grew quickly and was highly advanced by 2500 BCE. By the middle of the second millennium it had an alphabet, used bronze tools, had pottery, textiles, advanced architecture, and had established cities around the Islands. It continued to grow and was a center for trade and culture until about the mid-1400′s BCE when it was suddenly destroyed by the violent eruption of the Thera volcano. There has been no evidence unearthed from this civilization that shows a flood destroying their whole infrastructure, at any time in their existence.

Bible is not accurate, bible is not factual, bible is not true, bible is a parable, time to move on...

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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01-04-2015, 03:14 PM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2015 03:55 PM by Clockwork.)
Dat Noah Flood
In all my past years as a Christian, including scholarly work, somehow I missed the ice age story and verses.
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01-04-2015, 03:24 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(01-04-2015 02:24 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 01:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What records? There is no date for the Flood in the Bible. The Egyptians existed not at all until they descended from Noah, likewise the other people groups...

...Almost every ancient culture, however, has a Flood story. Not a fire story, meteorite story... a Flood story. They DID bother to mention it in their records.

Now we have to consider whether the Bible is accurate and etc. Time to move on.

shit happens, rain falls, floods occur, stories are told, and retold and exaggerated...the point is, in the biblical parable of the mythical global flood killing all life except for a family of 8 never happened (no global layer of evidence of a global flood)....and it definitely didnt happen as per xtian doctrine at 2349 bce.

Egyptian civilization is probably familiar to most of us. Egypt’s dynastic history started with the uniting of Upper and Lower Egypt by King Menes, around 3100 BCE. The Egyptian period known as the “Old Kingdom” lasted from 2800 to 2175 BCE. During this time many of the pyramids were built. There is no record, written or archaeological, for a monster flood destroying and completely interrupting this countries infrastructure or it’s monuments such as the Sphinx, the Step Pyramid, or the Great Pyramids, which were built before ‘The Flood’

China has a reasonably accurate history starting around 3000 BCE. According to texts from a Chinese book called “Shu King” and verified by archaeological records, China was undergoing a prosperous period around 2400 to 2200 BCE during the early Yaou Dynasty. They have no record of a cataclysmic flood interrupting their whole civilization and destroying the infrastructure of the country.

The Indus valley civilization has a well-known history dating back to perhaps 3100 BCE. By 2500 BCE there were two major cities, Mohendaro (or Mohenjo-Daro) and Harrapa, which rivaled Egypt and Mesopotamia in population and technologies. This great Civilization also encompassed maybe 100 smaller cities, towns, and villages, and didn’t fall until about 1500 BCE. They have no record of a worldwide civilization-destroying flood.

The Minoan civilization was probably as old as Egypt. Based on the Island of Crete, this civilization grew quickly and was highly advanced by 2500 BCE. By the middle of the second millennium it had an alphabet, used bronze tools, had pottery, textiles, advanced architecture, and had established cities around the Islands. It continued to grow and was a center for trade and culture until about the mid-1400′s BCE when it was suddenly destroyed by the violent eruption of the Thera volcano. There has been no evidence unearthed from this civilization that shows a flood destroying their whole infrastructure, at any time in their existence.

Bible is not accurate, bible is not factual, bible is not true, bible is a parable, time to move on...

I find it amusing that someone would consider the many flood myths as proof that something truthful happened sometime in the past and their particular remake of the tale is true. Why wouldn't the Epic of Gilgamesh be considered the true account since it predates the Noah myth by hundreds of years? Also, Gilgamesh actually has contemporary historical references to him as an actual king that existed! This is something that the biblical myth-heros of the bible did not have. Here's a list of the biblical heros that do not have any extra-biblical contemporary historical references:
Adam
Noah
Moses
Samson
Jesus

The Epic of Gilgamesh was based on a real person! Of course the Epic of Gilgamesh has stupid things in it that scream that it's a myth, things such as:

Enki making men from mud
A worldwide flood
A Tree of Life that can make one immortal if they eat of it
A snake that eats the tree of life, thus denying man immortality Consider

A rational person simply cannot believe such things.

Here's a great video for anyone perusing this thread, it gives a rundown of the Epic of Gilgamesh and its similarities to biblical myths showing clearly where the bible gets it's stories from.




Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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01-04-2015, 03:35 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(01-04-2015 01:53 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's hard to accept "THIS IS HOW AND WHERE AND WHY ALL MOUNTAINS FORMED" when the whole science rests on uniformitarian assumptions, assumptions that few people want to really consider/reconsider. God forbid the science show in ANY way that the Earth is young, or there was a flood event, etc. as we all know what THAT means.

It's always amusing, seeing how people harp on the assumptions of science, since the enormous leaps between the assumptions they see, and the conclusions they think discarding them will support, are so monumental they demonstrate that scientific rigor is the last thing on their minds, as opposed to just poking holes in the mistaken belief that doing so will elevate their own beliefs.

In your case, uniformitarian beliefs are based on a solid period of time where things have remained... uniform. That's evidence of uniformity, considering that it's... well, consistent uniformity. You don't need to assume, when literally all the evidence points to it.

But even if you were right, and here's where my first comment becomes relevant... discarding the idea that things stay uniform does not lead one to believe the Earth is young, or that there was a flood. That's your preferred belief, but without a principle of uniformitarianism, all we've really established is that we have unreliable mechanisms for measuring things in reality. That doesn't provide any evidence, at all, that your proposed answers are right. Hell, it doesn't even provide any evidence that the current science is wrong. And yet here you sit, asserting that there's some conspiracy to keep your views down by assuming uniformity; you're swinging altogether too wildly, and tipping your hand in the process.

Besides, you'd need evidence to counteract the observation of uniformity that we get every day. Just calling it an assumption doesn't invalidate the observation; you're essentially accusing science of bluffing, when you yourself aren't even holding any cards.
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01-04-2015, 04:39 PM
RE: Dat Noah Flood
(01-04-2015 01:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ..

...Almost every ancient culture, however, has a Flood story. Not a fire story, meteorite story... a Flood story. They DID bother to mention it in their records.

Now we have to consider whether the Bible is accurate and etc. Time to move on.

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