David, The Theist
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18-10-2012, 10:07 PM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2012 07:10 AM by The Theist.)
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 02:47 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  And, I'll actually be specific about your Greek.

On your site you say:

Ephesians 1:4-5 / 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 2 Timothy 1:9 all deals with the term "before the world began" and considers the time of humankind after the sin of Adam, and their offspring. The point being that immediately after Adam's sin Jehovah began to prepare for man's salvation.

Let's look at Eph 1:5
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Now, let's look at "before".

You say that the Greek says, "considers the time of humankind after the sin of Adam, and their offspring. The point being that immediately after Adam's sin".

The word "before" in Greek.

The usage of the word specifically means "prior to all created things".

That is the extent of your superior abilities at examining the common Greek? A reference to Strong's with an exponentially more limited application?!

Here we are talking about before the founding of the world.

The Greek word kosmos is usually translated as world in all of its occurrences in the Christian Greek Scriptures with the exception of 1 Peter 3:3 where it is translated as "adornment." In it's usual sense it has three distinctly different applications. 1. Humankind as a whole, 2. The framework of the human experience into which they are born and live, similar to the Greek aion meaning system of things and 3. The mass of mankind apart from God's approved servants.

Some confusion has been caused by the King James Version translating the word "world" from ge, aion, and oikoumene and the Hebrew words erets, chedhel, cheledh, ohlam and tevel. Later translations have helped in clearing up some of this confusion.

The Hebrew erets and the Greek ge, from which comes the English geography and geology, mean "earth; ground; soil; land." (Genesis 6:4 / Numbers 1:1 / Matthew 2:6; 5:5; 10:29 and 13:5) Sometimes they reference people of the earth in a figurative sense, like at Psalm 66:4 and Revelation 13:3.

The Hebrew ohlam and the Greek aion refer to a period of time of indefinite length (Genesis 6:3; 17:13 / Luke 1:70). Aion is also used to characterize a certain period, age or epoch. (Galatians 1:4) The Hebrew Cheledh has a similar meaning, for example being translated as "life's duration" and "system of things." (Job 11:17 / Psalm 17:4)

The Greek oikoumene means "inhabited earth" (Luke 21:26) and the Hebrew tevel means "productive land." (2 Samuel 22:16) The Hebrew Chedhel occurs only once, at Isaiah 38:11, and there is some dispute over it's exact meaning. The KJV renders it "world" The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, edited by G. Buttrick, 1962, Vol. 4, page 874 suggests a rendering of "inhabitants of (the world of) cessation" but points out that most scholars favor the reading of some Hebrew manuscripts that have cheledh in stead of chedhel.

Kosmos itself, self appointed god of Greek wisdom, has a basic meaning of "order; arrangement." Its about the beauty of symmetry, thus it is commonly used in the Greek extrabiblically, and at 1 Peter 3:3 as mentioned earlier, as "adornment." From the Greek kosmos comes the English word cosmetics. The related verb, kosmeo relates the sense of putting things in order (Matthew 25:7) The adjective, kosmios describes that which is "well aranged; orderly." (1 Timothy 2:9; 3:2)

In Greek philosophy kosmos is applied to the entire visible creation, but there was no real unanimity of thought regarding this. Some philosophers applied it exclusively to the celestial bodies, and others to the whole universe. Apocryphal writings sometimes describe kosmos as material creation as a whole (Wisdom 9:9; 11:17) and this had some influence on some Jewish thinking, but the writers of the inspired scriptures abstained virtually, if not entirely from this application.

Before The Founding Of The World

I mean, you have to answer to a great deal of material, and I believe you have referenced two of my links regarding the founding of the world. Whether or not you want to do that is up to you, I suppose, but I mean, my brief explanations in the links you referenced are far more harmonious with the Bible than the Greek philosophy you seem to be suggesting. Nevertheless, Hebrews 4:3 itself explains your error. God's creative works were, finished from the founding of the world, rather than "started."
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18-10-2012, 10:12 PM
RE: David, The Theist
I'm glad that someone already pointed this out, but there was no Adam.

Also, stop trying to drive traffic to your site. If anyone else on this forum is anything like me, they briefly took a look at it, and found it to be poorly put together, and a bit confusing to navigate. If you want us to read the things that you have written on a subject, you could just copy and paste them into this thread, or just retype your explanation here. Throwing up a bunch of links is annoying to the people who are trying to understand your point of view, and distracting from the flow of the thread, because they have to navigate away from the page to read your thoughts.

In other news, you seem like a nice person, but then you also seem a bit full of yourself. "No he doesn't know Greek." I think we all require a substantial amount of evidence to back up your claim, but as Bucky has already noted, most of us couldn't give less of a fuck about what the Bible says in the first place, so this whole Greek argument is only relevant to people who actually care about what the Bible has to say.

There something that we like to call evidence, and so far your evidence seems to be a couple of Bible verses and some assertions.

As for parts of the Bible being literal, and others not being literal, how is anyone meant to decide what is what?

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18-10-2012, 10:17 PM
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 10:12 PM)Near Wrote:  I'm glad that someone already pointed this out, but there was no Adam.

Exactly. All this mental masturbation, and nonsense about a mythical man who never existed. Who cares how words in a myth are translated. They are still myths. This baloney about Bible quote fights is such a waste of time. If there was ONE external, non-circular, source to lend any credibilty, it might be different. Who cares what the Greek translation of Zeus' "poop" is.It's still just "poop".

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18-10-2012, 10:22 PM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2012 10:26 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 08:07 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Most of what you seem to be suggesting is worship is a sort of spiritual lobotomy. Were you at one time religious? The omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient God is religious nonsense for the most part. God isn't omnipresent because his position is fixed in heaven. He can be anywhere he wants to be at any time, but he isn't everywhere all at one time. Omnipotent and omniscient have their limitations just as surely as omnivorous does. See my response to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible - Can God Do Anything?

If god is a being which no greater can be conceived than my ability to conceive a god who is capable of doing anything instantly refutes your case.

Any god who is limited is not a god, rather a god like being.

What you have done is called rationalization. A method in which we lie to our selves to eliminate cognitive dissonance.

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18-10-2012, 10:35 PM
RE: David, The Theist
Yup! After reading through everyones definition of what they think something means according to their own studies- who cares! It's all from ancient languages that don't prove anything except someone wrote it down in an ancient language. What does this prove?? Where is the Aha! Where I go, OMG he's right!?

I asked for evidence and got a link to a site that inturpets the bible like I couldn't read it myself, which I have. Like I can't understand a book that's supposed to be first hand proof so I need someone to explain it as proof anyway?

All I do is shake my head at the skirted answers and drawn out explanations that explain nothing.


Real question: what happened or what part was the turning point where you went from "I'm atheist" to "I'm theist"?

Was it something you read, a moment in your life? The course of several weeks? An influential person?

It would have to be something evidential, wouldn't it?
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18-10-2012, 10:45 PM
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 10:35 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  Yup! After reading through everyones definition of what they think something means according to their own studies- who cares! It's all from ancient languages that don't prove anything except someone wrote it down in an ancient language. What does this prove?? Where is the Aha! Where I go, OMG he's right!?

I asked for evidence and got a link to a site that inturpets the bible like I couldn't read it myself, which I have. Like I can't understand a book that's supposed to be first hand proof so I need someone to explain it as proof anyway?

All I do is shake my head at the skirted answers and drawn out explanations that explain nothing.


Real question: what happened or what part was the turning point where you went from "I'm atheist" to "I'm theist"?

Was it something you read, a moment in your life? The course of several weeks? An influential person?

It would have to be something evidential, wouldn't it?

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19-10-2012, 01:12 AM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2012 03:47 AM by depat.)
RE: David, The Theist
Hello David, The Theist
You're so much damned fun.

I don't care to debate theism. I am now unable.

I recently realized, I now lack a personal concept of god. I attempted to answer a question on another thread about my belief of the Christian god, and I badly stumbled about.

I hab been refrencing ideas of god according to my past personal trainning and beliefs about god, the Christian god. The idea of god to me now is simply narrowed to what each religion believes. I still have that reference, but it's no longer personal. I can simply no longer conceive of god.
I no longer feel a polarity within myself or with theists. An interesting recent development, within my perspective.

Our spaces are so different!
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19-10-2012, 07:01 AM
RE: David, The Theist
Edit:

You know what...

never mind.

Forget it. It's really not worth the effort.

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19-10-2012, 07:26 AM
RE: David, The Theist
(19-10-2012 07:01 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Edit:

You know what...

never mind.

Forget it. It's really not worth the effort.


This one really isn't worth it. His education level is so bad, he can't do anything except Bible quote. He doesn't even know enough about Bible history to argue about "context", let alone form or literary criticism topics.
I don't know if it's a "Bible Belt thing, or what. Even ST Ranger could be prompted to stop the Bible quotes. This one doesn't even know what "circular" means. Weeping

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19-10-2012, 07:34 AM
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 10:17 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(18-10-2012 10:12 PM)Near Wrote:  I'm glad that someone already pointed this out, but there was no Adam.

Exactly. All this mental masturbation, and nonsense about a mythical man who never existed. Who cares how words in a myth are translated. They are still myths. This baloney about Bible quote fights is such a waste of time. If there was ONE external, non-circular, source to lend any credibilty, it might be different. Who cares what the Greek translation of Zeus' "poop" is.It's still just "poop".

Right. Now it doesn't matter. Maybe you can trade your PHD for a comic book.
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