David, The Theist
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18-10-2012, 08:37 AM
RE: David, The Theist
Hi David, I have 5 questions I like to ask Christians when they come.

If you don't want to answer these, don't feel obligated.

1) Do you believe in the Doctrine of Free Will (Arminian) or the Doctrine of Election (Calvinist)?

2) What is your belief on Origins? Are you a Young Earth Creationist (YEC), Old Earth Creationist (OEC), Progressive Creationist (PC), Theistic Evolutionist (TE), or an Evolutionary Creationist (EC)?

3) What is your eschatological belief?

4) Do you believe the Bible is 100% literal?

5) Do you believe "inspired" equates to being literally inerrant?

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18-10-2012, 09:18 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2012 09:22 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 06:42 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  The Bible is not the word of god so much as it is words of the prophets, and these prophets were required to present scripture in their own cultural contexts. For those who believe in infallibility, this explains the seeming contradictions.

One of the pervasive contexts is a desire to separate themselves from what they saw as the decadent behavior of the Greeks and Romans, to wit, homosexuality. The Bible is not god but rather a doorway to god. To see beyond that doorway is to understand the spirit of the law rather than just parrot the letter.

Denying your sexuality does not please god, but rather panders to an obsolete cultural context.

Of course the entire premise of those who discuss Biblical texts as "giving law" is misguided. There is no instance where Biblical law is not "received" from culture. The Bible was written by humans, who appropriated already existing law and culture, and "sanctioned" it, and "received it" into the texts. The texts never, ever, in not one instance, *give* a unique or unknown instance of a norm *to* culture. Thus the ONLY way to understand the Bible is to understand the culture., The culture of the ancient Hebrews was not concerned with sexuality. The concept of "orientation" was absent. That idea arose in human thought in the 19th Century. All men were assumed to be "straight", as Biblical authors had no way of knowing about hormonal, or molecular chemistry. First, the text of Leviticus was largely assembled by the Judean priests, and it did not exist as a "Torah" (combined with the others into the Torah of Moses), until, at the earliest, Ezra brought the Moses Torah back from Babylon, (or wrote it between the return and the introduction in 458 BCE when he brought back the "authorization letter" from Artaxerxes). As part of the Priestly culture, he/the priests wrote into the texts, the norms *they* felt should be followed. In ancient Israel, the production of sons, and male status was paramount. The issue of sexual conduct among males was entirely a status issue, and the law was written so that the infraction was said to be the highest level of "abomination' (there were three), and it was punishable by death. (Leviticus 20:13). I highly doubt, that "The Theist" thinks he ought to be put to death, for his conduct. If he is a Biblical literalist, then he needs to go get himself put to death, and of course it also requires that he maintain his relationship to ALL the other "abominations"... shrimp, no female clothing, (interesting that even way back then *cross dressing* was an issue). Also we learn from Luke "That which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." (Luke 16:15), thus we may not value ANYTHING, or ANYONE, *including* Biblical value systems, human love, or *anything*. As you see, God is an early Nihilist. Big Grin

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18-10-2012, 09:45 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2012 10:11 AM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: David, The Theist
Hey there Dave, don't want to step in too far as I'm currently barely able to get on. You'll have more than enough theological discussions in the future. I do have one thing though which seems an important question for you.

As a product of biology I was born neither male nor female. My outward appearance primarily that of a male. As a baby I had a surgery to repair my genitals (an offence in itself that restricts me from jewish orthodoxy) this was necessary so that I could pee. While the state declared that I am male it in no way was an actual fact. I had multiple puberties before even getting the hormones necessary to keep my body in a stable mode. According to the book that you have chosen most wise I do not even exist as there are only two options available to all humanity. Any form of sexual interaction with me would be seen as a sin because I am not of one or the other. What makes you feel that by nature of being born inbetween I should be forced to lead a life in absolute service to god in fear of sinning by being myself?

Hermaphroditic gods existed before Judaism so it is not likely to be something they just plain had no idea of. The Sumerians had hermaphroditic gods and were one of the religions most connected to the birth of Judaism. Why follow conscripts of sexuality that are so heavily biased? I have no hope of reproduction and am therefore not allowed to perform sexual acts due to the meaninglessness of them. I see no reason that you should take sexual descriptions that force you to heavily ignore bodily needs. You may find what you did in the past disgusting at this point, but I bet you stilll think about it. The human mind has a wonderful ability to contradict itself and to simply deny a need is to torture yourself in a way that won't end until your death.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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18-10-2012, 10:48 AM
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 02:39 AM)kpax Wrote:  It just seems like you are trying to be both a Theist and an Atheist at the same time such as you've created some type of misleading mash up for yourself. I have been in the same position myself for years when I went from a Christian to finally admitting I was an Atheist but for you it's going from Atheist to Christian.

I predict you will either be full Christian or revert back to Atheism in a few years. You are on the fence and you don't realize it, sorry.

Well, that is an interesting perspective. Let me put it this way. I have been studying the Bible for 20 years. Intense study on a daily basis. I started out as an atheist, but as a theist, a henotheist to be exact, if I should find just one reason not to trust the Bible as the real work of Jehovah God, than I would gladly revert to atheism. I'm interested in truth.

(18-10-2012 02:39 AM)kpax Wrote:  Then there is this:

(17-10-2012 11:01 PM)The Theist Wrote:  I'm homosexual, was born that way

(17-10-2012 11:01 PM)The Theist Wrote:  My opinion on that subject is that god doesn't make, as such, homosexuals or for that matter those who are inclined to pedophilia, bestiality, or heterosexual practices. As far as I can tell homosexuality is a learned behavior.

I have asked you to point out my contradictions and you have done so. Interesting that it hadn't occurred to me, but looking back I have made that contradictory statement many times. I don't think that I was born homosexual, but I have been for as long as I could remember. I do think that it is a learned behavior. But I could be wrong. Either way, it is a product of sin. Against the manufacturer's recommendation, as it were.
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18-10-2012, 11:28 AM
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 08:37 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Hi David, I have 5 questions I like to ask Christians when they come.

If you don't want to answer these, don't feel obligated.

I love to answer questions.

(18-10-2012 08:37 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  1) Do you believe in the Doctrine of Free Will (Arminian) or the Doctrine of Election (Calvinist)?

Earlier in this thread I stated that I loath all organized religion, and that I typically don't like having discussions with theists. I also said I had a basic knowledge of all the major religions, but there are probably atheists here who know about doctrinal positions of Christianity that I am not at all familiar with. The fact is I think them irrelevant. Like the metaphysical experimentation called Evolutionary theory.

However, some of the material regarded in those doctrinal positions do from time to time come under my scrutiny. My position on Freewill and Determinism, as given in response to the SAB is as follows.

Do Humans Have Freewill?

What The Bible Says About Freewill (Determinism)

(18-10-2012 08:37 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  2) What is your belief on Origins? Are you a Young Earth Creationist (YEC), Old Earth Creationist (OEC), Progressive Creationist (PC), Theistic Evolutionist (TE), or an Evolutionary Creationist (EC)?

So many labels to pigeonhole oneself into! Not really my thing. I believe the Bible, which doesn't indicate in any way, the age of the earth or universe. Whatever the ever changing estimation of science may be at any given time isn't in conflict with the Bible because the Bible simply doesn't say. See The Theist | Academic's Annotated Bible: Genesis Chapter 1

(18-10-2012 08:37 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  3) What is your eschatological belief?

Uh . . . I gave at the office. You have to be careful there. Maybe see my response to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible Revelation Chapters 1-22?

I believe the Bible, but a great deal of the end times prophecies are grossly misunderstood.

(18-10-2012 08:37 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  4) Do you believe the Bible is 100% literal?

No. Some of it is figurative, symbolic, poetic, illustrative, allegorical. You can't pick and choose, though, you have to figure out which is which.

(18-10-2012 08:37 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  5) Do you believe "inspired" equates to being literally inerrant?

That depends upon who is doing the inspiring, and what happens afterwards. The inspired word of Jehovah God as given to the writers of the Bible was inerrant, the translation wasn't.
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18-10-2012, 11:37 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2012 12:28 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: David, The Theist
Look...

You do a lot of dodging, word play, and answering non-specifically towards questions.

This isn't going to fly here for long. Just giving you a heads up.

Also, your link about the verses and freewill has a lot of errors. Mainly your assertions about classes of people, being preordained, and individuals.

How much Greek and Hebrew do you know or studied? I ask because your conclusions are not aligned with what the language says.

I'm not going to push any further because I doubt I I'm going to get a straight answer with your inundated ambiguity.

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18-10-2012, 12:26 PM
RE: David, The Theist
Bump.

Why worship a God who's so callous as to condemn people to eternal suffering for a harmless act ?

This not limited to homosexuality but including sex before marriage, 100 gazillion other prohibitions about what you can do with your equipment. Then a whole bunch of other random rules. No heaven for people who think I'm a made up pack of human lies. Why would God (btw the guy who apparently made the Andromeda galaxy, which can fit billions of Earths) care about what some ants stuck on a speck of dirt think of him? Why would he intensely monitor and control their lives?

You'll notice I'm not even getting into the God exists debate. Let God exist. Why would you worship a nasty God like him ? Who refuses to show himself, leaves a cryptic half assed book behind, and says that anyone who doesn't think *exactly* as I say is gonna get burned?

Free will ? I give you free will to think as you like and shoot you if you think wrongly ? Yeah, justice right there.

Dude. You studied the bible for how long. Did you not consider these questions? You must have. Ergo, you have an answer, right? Share it with us benighted heathens, that we too may know the joy that is Christ?

You might be getting a sarcastic tone. I apologize. I am restraining myself with great difficulty from expressing myself more... fruitily. I know that comes across as hostile. It really isn't. It's just... sometimes this self assured "Oh I've read the bible and I have never once in all my years found cause to doubt it" attitude... How do you know that next year you won't (find cause to doubt it) ? I get frustrated... sometimes.
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18-10-2012, 12:42 PM
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 02:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I see.
There most certainly are. Who have you debated ?

I have debated thousands of atheists and theists online since 1996. I have come across two in each camp that I thought they knew what they were talking about and none of those four agreed with me.

When it comes to scholars I think of people like Albert Einstein, Jane Goodall, Edward Van Halen. From a Biblical perspective if I subscribed to the most prestigious academic institution they would probably tell me that the soul is immortal due to the influence of Greek philosophy in Jewish thinking about the time of Alexander the Great, and I read Ezekiel 18:4 that plainly says that the soul dies. Then some scholars disagree, noting the aforementioned influence.

If you subscribe to the notion that Biblical consideration is entirely dependent upon; dictated and spoon fed to the atheist as well as the theist or otherwise without merit, I disagree. But that sort of position would make your criticism somewhat pointless.

Its important to reference the work of scholars, and I do that, but I think for myself.

(18-10-2012 02:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yes. I see what you did there. Obliviously the intent of that verse is not to convey that an actual deity *IS* a belly, but rather a "(main) focus of attention, or behavior" functions as a focus of attention. It's a figure of speech. Do you know what a "figure of speech" is, and why and how that is ubiquitous in scripture ? Do you propose that "pun", and "figure of speech" are not legitimate forms of literary usage in the Bible ? You have removed the verse from it's context, in which the author was discussing "conduct", and purposely changed the meaning to suit your (obviously non-intended) purpose. If that's the sort of mindless literalism you espouse, there is no point in discussing anything further. You're can't possibly be suggesting that the author intended that the text be taken to mean that a belly is actually worshiped, with the intellectual content of a human, as a deity ?

Yes. As a deity. And why not? The term atheism itself is nonsensical because anything and anyone can be a god. A deity.

(18-10-2012 02:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no confusion. They are two entirely different deities, which got conflated, as any scholar knows. Exactly where do YOU think Javeh, or Jehovah came from, in the history of human ideas ? Consider

(18-10-2012 02:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  By your definition a jet engine could be a god. A thunderstorm could be a god. Are you a "lightning" theist ? Do you worship large waves ? (I do, being a surfer. Tongue) Consider

How many gods were mentioned by the Bible? What about Moses and the Judges of Israel, who were real people that existed. The atheist has to perform the intellectual gymnastics when it comes to an understanding of deity.

Exodus 7:1 Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: "See, I have made you God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet."

Psalm 82:1, 6 God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One;
In the middle of the gods he judges: "I myself have said, 'you are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.'"

John 10:34-35 Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said: "You are gods"'? If he called 'gods' those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified,

Lets say a man makes his way across the open plains near death. Cold, hungry and tired. No fuel for lighting a fire for protection, warmth, cooking. He stumbles upon a dried pile of bison excrement. Beneath it are bugs for food. He lights it and keeps warm under the protection of the fire. He decides that this dung is his god. That dung, then, is a god.

(18-10-2012 02:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You cannot possibly be suggesting, that in ancient Hebrew culture Yahweh, and his wife, were worshiped with equal intellectual content as the other gods, or that there was not a hierarchy of deities ? By your definition "god" actually *has* no meaning if it has every meaning. In your (odd) system "god" is a completely relative form of "super pantheism".

The Hebrew El means "Mighty One; Strong One," and is applied to Jehovah, to other gods and goddesses such as Baal, Satan, Molech, Dagon, Tammuz, and to men such as Moses, Jesus, and the Judges of Israel as well as angels. What about that do you object to, because you can shove it into any category or school of thought that you like, it doesn't change what the Bible says a god is. The modern day English definition agrees. I asked you to elaborate on the confusion of Israel and Sumerian myths which you brought up. You are not doing that. I think that you are confusing El with Yahweh, a common atheist mistake.

(18-10-2012 02:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You are no theist sir. I don't know what you are, but you don't get to redefine words for your personal use, AND expect that they will have meaning to others.

Define the word god for me in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin and English. Consult your scholars, if you wish.

(18-10-2012 02:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If you are self-taught, what scholar would you say has had the most influence on your thought ? Do you subscribe to the Documentary Hypothesis, or any of their later developments ?

No specific scholar. The Documentary Hypothesis is really poor scholarship for someone so obsessed with academia. Wellhausen's views were based almost exclusively on literal analysis and certainly haven't been supplemented by an examination of institutional archeology. In fact, quite the contrary.

You are an intellectual who wants to believe the Bible is myth.

(18-10-2012 02:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Since in Christian Theology, it arises only in community, how did you decide you were an exception to that, and what exactly is your method for making sure you are not led astray into heresy ?


An exception to the community? I haven't been baptized, because who would baptize me? Apostate Christendom? Part of my method for not being led astray into heresy is avoiding organized religion and an over emphasis of the scholarly.

(18-10-2012 02:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Also BTW, anyone who has taken Human Sexuality 101 at a university level knows that sexuality is not a learned behavior. There is absolutely no question about that in Biology and Genetics, Psychology, N euro-biology, and N euro-psychiatry. How did you decide you were competent to make the decision that you know more than the vast majority of all the PhD's in those fields in science ?

I said that it was my opinion and that I may be wrong and that it didn't really matter because ultimately it has to do with sin.
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18-10-2012, 12:54 PM
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 12:42 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(18-10-2012 02:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yes. I see what you did there. You're can't possibly be suggesting that the author intended that the text be taken to mean that a belly is actually worshiped, with the intellectual content of a human, as a deity ?

Yes. As a deity. And why not? The term atheism itself is nonsensical because anything and anyone can be a god. A deity.

Quote: The atheist has to perform the intellectual gymnastics when it comes to an understanding of deity.

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18-10-2012, 01:03 PM
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 07:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  Welcome Smile

Um... God as described in the Bible doesn't seem like a nice guy. Why do you worship him?

Lets clarify what do you mean by worship?

I believe the Bible as the word of Jehovah God. I trust it. The meaning of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is this: The vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

In a basic sense Jehovah created man to live forever in paradise without sickness or the slow decay of death. Man rejected it and raised the question of Jehovah's sovereignty. God allowed this issue to be settled. He stepped back only interfering to let us know what was going on and that there was a solution.

(18-10-2012 07:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  Is homosexuality really that bad ? I like gay guys. I like lesbians. God apparently wants to cook them? For what? Some human sticks his prong in the wrong hole and now it's all 'you're gonna burn for eternity' ? Why?

Good and bad are in the eyes of the beholder. I've been to the roadside hangouts and the gay bars, I've seen the broken lives and the betrayal. I've found it to be bad.

Hell, by the way, isn't a Bible teaching, it is pagan myth adopted by later Christianity.

The Reality Of Hell

Does Hell Exist? A response to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible.
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