David, The Theist
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18-10-2012, 02:47 PM
RE: David, The Theist
And, I'll actually be specific about your Greek.

On your site you say:

Ephesians 1:4-5 / 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 2 Timothy 1:9 all deals with the term "before the world began" and considers the time of humankind after the sin of Adam, and their offspring. The point being that immediately after Adam's sin Jehovah began to prepare for man's salvation.

Let's look at Eph 1:5
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Now, let's look at "before".

You say that the Greek says, "considers the time of humankind after the sin of Adam, and their offspring. The point being that immediately after Adam's sin".

The word "before" in Greek.

The usage of the word specifically means "prior to all created things".

Foundation literally means "foundation".

So, the Greek says "prior to the foundation of all created things". You aren't just kind of wrong, you are completely wrong.

Likewise, you are completely even more wrong with 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Greek word for "before". In this verse it means "used absolutely, of the beginning of all things".

It literally means "before" in its most absolute sense. Before a "before" so to speak. Once again, you are way off base.

The word for "before" in 2 Timothy 1:9. It again means, "prior to all created things".

Now, time and eternal mean "the dative is used to express the time during which something occurs" and "without a beginning or end" respectively. This shows the further emphasis that the decision was made "prior to all created things from the time period that has no beginning or end".

Your Greek is pretty bad in these verses.

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18-10-2012, 03:03 PM
RE: David, The Theist
Say what you like about KC.......but that motherfucker knows his Greek!

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18-10-2012, 03:55 PM
RE: David, The Theist
@The Theist:

Where to start . . .

First of all, about your use of "Jehovah God." "Jehovah" is a mistake. A goof. A laughable misunderstanding of Hebrew conventions. I posted a detailed explanation about this several months ago:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid159947

Concerning your statements about homosexuality:

The Theist Wrote:I don't think that I was born homosexual, but I have been for as long as I could remember. I do think that it is a learned behavior. But I could be wrong.

It's not that you could be wrong. You are wrong. There is no evidence that homosexuality is learned behavior, and lots of evidence that it is inborn--either genetic or due to pre-natal factors.

By the way, I'm curious: You say you are no longer homosexual, or at least that you don't engage in homosexual acts. Does that mean you've converted to hetero? Are you now interested in banging women? I don't believe you've said. If that's not the case, it sure sounds as if you've decided to live an asexual life. You, of course, see that as in keeping with God's Will. I see it as sad.

The Theist Wrote:
morondog Wrote:Is homosexuality really that bad ? I like gay guys. I like lesbians. God apparently wants to cook them? For what? Some human sticks his prong in the wrong hole and now it's all 'you're gonna burn for eternity' ? Why?

Good and bad are in the eyes of the beholder. I've been to the roadside hangouts and the gay bars, I've seen the broken lives and the betrayal. I've found it to be bad.

Might I suggest that if you evaluated heterosexuality by going to roadside hangouts and bars, you would likely come to the same conclusion. I'm a gay man who has been in a loving relationship for 43 years. I do not frequent roadside hangouts, and I visit bars very rarely, and then only with friends. Most of my gay friends are other men in long-term relationships. Your data is, to be kind, skewed.

The Theist Wrote:God created Adam and Eve and they bore offspring as they were instructed. Some of them, due to sin, were and are homosexuals, rapists, murderers, alcoholic, blind, etc.

Blind? Blind people are blind because of sin? Huh

And you're equating gay people with rapists and murderers? Huh

Others have welcomed you here, and that's their right. I do not welcome you. You're a self-loathing, bigoted fool, and your ideas are vile.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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18-10-2012, 04:06 PM
RE: David, The Theist
There was no "Adam and Eve", (except for Mitochondrial Eve).
Is this guy also an Evolution denier, and a Creationist ? OMG. Weeping

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18-10-2012, 04:08 PM
RE: David, The Theist
I am sorry that you are laboring under the delusion that the Bible is anything but a collection of myths. You are wasting your only life.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-10-2012, 04:09 PM
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 04:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  I am sorry that you are laboring under the delusion that the Bible is anything but a collection of myths. You are wasting your only life.
The terseness and deadliness is strong in this one. Thumbsup

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18-10-2012, 04:11 PM
RE: David, The Theist
Adding more to your wrong interpretation of the Greek:

You say, "Acts 13:48 - To be ordained or appointed indicates a people being rightly disposed rather than preordained. The verse is talking about the prophecy of Isaiah 42:6-7 in which the opportunity of salvation would be extended to the Gentile. "

You say in more detail, "Acts 13:48 (KJV) uses the term "ordained." To be ordained in a religious sense is to officially appoint someone to a position such as Priest or Rabbi. Keep in mind that to appoint someone doesn't in itself determine the outcome of it. It doesn't dictate their success or failure. To ordain in a legal sense means to establish something formerly as by law. Again, this doesn't dictate success or failure. The law ordained isn't necessarily obeyed or followed. "

Let's look more closely at "Acts 13:48 - To be ordained or appointed indicates a people being rightly disposed rather than preordained."

The Greek word for appointed.

The Greek here means, "to put one under another's control (A. V. set under), (passive)".

So, the verse: When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

The bolded part says in Greek, "those that were put under the control of being appointed by God for eternal life". This is also passive, so excludes any choice in the matter. There is something acting on it, in this case, God.

Where you concocted this idea that the Greek says being ordained is like a priest being ordained as a priest but doesn't necessitate an outcome is baffling. The language doesn't even hint at that.

And... honestly... I'm tired of exposing your Greek for what it is... but let's just say you illogically assigned a random prophecy to "beef up" your point - but, in reality, it's just arbitrary verse association.

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18-10-2012, 04:13 PM
RE: David, The Theist
Damn... Another guy huh?

Well, I am game for another one.

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18-10-2012, 04:15 PM
RE: David, The Theist
(18-10-2012 01:15 AM)The Theist Wrote:  
(18-10-2012 12:40 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Welcome.


Thank you.

(18-10-2012 12:40 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Your opening post seems strange to me. I haven't decided whether you are a troll or not yet, but if you are not then I must say I am a bit confused.

The word troll is often overused on forums to describe anyone who disagrees with the majority. I like your signature, by the way. I'm not here to cause trouble. My time is too valuable for the sport of trolling.

(18-10-2012 12:40 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Also, I would like to know just what it is you believe. Do you believe the bible to be literal?

Some of it. In general, yes. For example. Adam was a literal person. Listed in the genealogy, as a father to children, referenced, not as allegorical by later Bible writers. Jesus illustration of Lazarus and the Rich man, wasn't a literal event. Later Jesus would say no man had ascended to heaven except for him who had descended from heaven. Jesus himself. Not Lazarus. One has to distinguish between the literal and the figurative.

(18-10-2012 12:40 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Why do you reject other religions, in particular the Abrahamic religions?

I reject all religion. Religion transmogrifies the original teachings. Taoism and especially Christianity are stunning examples of this. The Jews rejected Jehovah and the messiah. Paul foretold of apostasy of Christianity when at 2 timothy 4:1-4 he used the Greek word mythous (myth), later translated into the Latin fabulas (fables) as the preferred teachings.

Christmas from the winter solstice celebrations, Easter from the spring celebrations of the pagan fertility goddess and consort of Baal, Astarte, the immortal soul from Socrates, the trinity from Plato, hell from Dante and Milton, even the modern rapture from Darby.

I have studied the other religions histories and their Sacred Texts and though, the religions are all untrustworthy, including the Abrahamic ones, the texts don't compare to the Bible.

(18-10-2012 12:40 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Are you a young-earth Creationist?

Definitely not. The Bible doesn't contradict with science on the age of the earth or universe. It simply doesn't say. See my website on Genesis Chapter 1.

(18-10-2012 12:40 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Where has science been wrong when it conflicts with biblical accounts?

On the one hand I don't think it matters, at least not to me, because science has never interested me. On the other hand I have to deal with the subject from time to time. Primarily there is disagreement between the two when it comes to the flood and evolution. Often science minded atheist make some really embarrassing assumptions about the conflicts between the two, some examples of this are here, at the bottom of the page under Science And The Bible

(18-10-2012 12:40 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I look forward to learning more about your belief system.

And I look forward to learning more about yours.

(18-10-2012 12:40 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Not that I am advocating than anyone follow the bible, but concerning moral authority and judging others the bible does have conflicting accounts on whether or not you should judge, so I guess just do whatever you feel like doing.

Leviticus 19:15: In righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor.
God’s law given to Moses instructs the righteous to judge others.

Matthew 7:1: Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Part of Jesus’ sermon on the mount, instructing not to judge others.

It depends, I suppose, upon what you mean by judge. Perhaps I should elaborate what I meant. I don't sit in judgement of others because there is no degree of sin. Sin is sin. Literally to miss the mark. I don't condemn the actions of someone else as if I am the one who has been appointed to do that. I may condemn actions for myself but to each his own. Each of us are subject to the laws of our governments and our beliefs. To each his own.

I am not here to debate your beliefs, but I appreciate you taking time to respond so thoroughly. Especially with so many questions from so many people. I look forward to hearing from you on the thread. When I said troll, that is what I meant. We have a few other Theists here, but many of them just come here to troll and then are gone within a few days or weeks.

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18-10-2012, 04:21 PM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2012 06:09 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: David, The Theist
And, just to be clear, I'm not trying to be a dick... like at all.

You just spoke so matter-of-factly about your points (things I've never heard anyone say before) that I began looking more deeply into your interpretations. I found that they are wholly wrong, as far as the Greek goes. These are the points I'm trying to address.

It's... it's... like... not even a valid interpretation of the language... it's like you redefined the meanings to fit what you wanted it to say. This is the problem I have.

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