Dawkins and criticism.
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17-12-2014, 02:43 PM
RE: Dawkins and criticism.
(17-12-2014 02:04 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 01:39 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  (even though everyone knows what he means but he just doesn't word it properly)

I think that's the key. I've cringed at some of what he's put out not because I don't understand what he's trying to say but because he's presenting what needs to be a detailed, nuanced argument in a tweet. Without the context of the entire argument it sounds bad and that gives theists ammunition.

Atheists understand that everything he says can be questioned but theists often don't grasp that "prominent atheist" isn't the same as "authoritative atheist". That makes it seem reasonable for them to dismiss all atheists and their arguments based on a misunderstood sound bite and that makes it harder for all of us.

Yes, this. I've cringed at some of he's "tweeted" then I unfollowed him on twitter. 120 characters isn't enough to describe a position -- especially if your suggesting to someone to terminate a pregnancy. Or to argue that 'date rape is bad, but rape at knife-point is worse.' That statement alone, had me facepalming and then to respond by saying the readers didn't understand what he was saying.

Personally, I think he suffers from foot-in-mouth disease, as so many others.


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17-12-2014, 02:53 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2014 02:57 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Dawkins and criticism.
(17-12-2014 02:04 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Atheists understand that everything he says can be questioned but theists often don't grasp that "prominent atheist" isn't the same as "authoritative atheist". That makes it seem reasonable for them to dismiss all atheists and their arguments based on a misunderstood sound bite and that makes it harder for all of us.

Well, it isn't theist that's blasting him, but his former fanbase, and fellow promoters of atheism and skepticism, such as PZ Myers, and some firebrand secular feminist.

Dawkins in my view has said some pretty stupid things about rape, that one doesn't have to be a theist, or an atheist to understand.

But his brand is completely obliterated at this point, that hardly anyone but a few fanboys hold it with much esteem anymore.
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17-12-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: Dawkins and criticism.
(17-12-2014 02:35 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 02:19 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  I can see why people are not happy about his comments on rape. I think how bad a rape was isn't for others to decide. Saying one rape is worse than another (even if for some reason it's true) minimizes the legitimate feelings of pain and suffering victims of rape should be allowed to feel, process,and deal with.

It's almost like saying "you really shouldn't feel that bad, at least you weren't raped by a stranger". For the record, I don't necessarily agree with him here. I'd think being raped by someone you possibly knew and were close to/trusted would be worse. We all have our own opinions though. I like the man, but I don't have to agree with everything he says. I also don't have to write him off completely because I don't agree with everything he says.

That is how most people reacted to that.

He did reply to those telling him that he was "belittling" rape, and the most important part of his reply was this:

Quote:There should be no rivalry in victimhood, and I’m sorry I once said something similar to American women complaining of harassment, inviting them to contemplate the suffering of Muslim women by comparison. But maybe you get the point? If we wish to insist (in the face of judicial practice everywhere) that all examples of a sexual crime are exactly equally bad, perhaps we need to look more carefully at exactly who is belittling what.

The whole story needs a lot of context which I cannot mention here because of forum rules. If you actually look it up and see his replies to all the accusations, what he says makes sense. He really didn't mean it that way.

Here is another problem, and maybe he should give up twitter or use it to simply direct people to a longer more thoughtful reply -- because quite honestly I'm too busy to track down what he really meant to say or the context (the background story) of the message he was trying to convey.


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17-12-2014, 03:02 PM
RE: Dawkins and criticism.
(17-12-2014 02:57 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 02:35 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  That is how most people reacted to that.

He did reply to those telling him that he was "belittling" rape, and the most important part of his reply was this:


The whole story needs a lot of context which I cannot mention here because of forum rules. If you actually look it up and see his replies to all the accusations, what he says makes sense. He really didn't mean it that way.

Here is another problem, and maybe he should give up twitter or use it to simply direct people to a longer more thoughtful reply -- because quite honestly I'm too busy to track down what he really meant to say or the context (the background story) of the message he was trying to convey.

Can't disagree with that!

It was funny though, a guy mentioned that "Dawkins is cool and all, but I don't like some things he says" and he shows me a very inaccurate article about things that Dawkins had supposedly said ("Dawkins is against multiculturalism", when what he had said was something like "Islam is justified for the sake of multiculturalism") and I asked him if he had actually seen those things written by Dawkins himself, he said "I've only read one, so I suppose the rest of the article is true". When I pointed out the article's inaccuracies, he had nothing to say.

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17-12-2014, 03:04 PM
RE: Dawkins and criticism.
(17-12-2014 02:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 02:04 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Atheists understand that everything he says can be questioned but theists often don't grasp that "prominent atheist" isn't the same as "authoritative atheist". That makes it seem reasonable for them to dismiss all atheists and their arguments based on a misunderstood sound bite and that makes it harder for all of us.

Well, it isn't theist that's blasting him, but his former fanbase, and fellow promoters of atheism and skepticism, such as PZ Myers, and some firebrand secular feminist.

Dawkins in my view has said some pretty stupid things about rape, that one doesn't have to be a theist, or an atheist to understand.

But his brand is completely obliterated at this point, that hardly anyone but a few fanboys hold it with much esteem anymore.

I know many theists that follow him on twitter, just like I know atheists follow theists like Ray Comfort. Whatever floats their boat. But to suggest that only atheists follow him is really kinda stupid.


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17-12-2014, 03:07 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2014 03:11 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Dawkins and criticism.
(17-12-2014 02:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 02:04 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Atheists understand that everything he says can be questioned but theists often don't grasp that "prominent atheist" isn't the same as "authoritative atheist". That makes it seem reasonable for them to dismiss all atheists and their arguments based on a misunderstood sound bite and that makes it harder for all of us.

Well, it isn't theist that's blasting him, but his former fanbase, and fellow promoters of atheism and skepticism, such as PZ Myers, and some firebrand secular feminist.

There is no doubt that many atheists have criticized him. In general I think they were right do so. Dawkins really put his foot squarely in his mouth multiple times and should stick to what he does best.

On the other hand, calling them his "former fanbase" I think demonstrates my point about the difference in how atheists view authority figures compared to how theists view them. Nothing about this takes away from those areas where he has contributed to the growth of atheism. I can respect his accomplishments and admire his work in that area and still disagree with him in other areas. Every statement, every claim, is evaluated individually.

Quote:Dawkins in my view is an idiot, and has some pretty stupid things to say about rape, that one doesn't have to be a theist, or an atheist to understand.

Some of the statements he has made recently were idiotic. That does not make Dawkins an idiot.

Quote:But his brand is completely obliterated at this point, that hardly anyone but a few fanboys hold it with much esteem anymore.

Citation? That sounds much more like wishful thinking from the theistic side of the fence than reality. In other words, same old same old.

Note: I just checked and he still has over a million twitter followers. Not bad for somebody who's brand is completely obliterated.

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17-12-2014, 03:15 PM
RE: Dawkins and criticism.
I love Richard Dawkins, always have. In fact, he shares many of my views on intelligent extraterrestrial life.

Brilliant man.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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17-12-2014, 03:26 PM
RE: Dawkins and criticism.
(17-12-2014 03:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Citation? That sounds much more like wishful thinking from the theistic side of the fence than reality. In other words, same old same old.

Note: I just checked and he still has over a million twitter followers. Not bad for somebody who's brand is completely obliterated.


Bill Cosby has nearly four times the amount.

Dawkins is following in the same foot steps of thunderf00t, engaging in the sort of anti-feminism diatribe. He's doubled down on his insensitive rape comments which never works out well. He's worked the ire of a good chunk of his own community. When was the last time someone watched a thunderf00t video?

And these sort of things, are not the sorts of things that people typically come back from, especially when one lacks any remorse about it.

If he was a corporate brand, his stock would be plummeting, and any sensible investor would recognize that it's never going back to where it once was.
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17-12-2014, 03:34 PM
RE: Dawkins and criticism.
(17-12-2014 03:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  engaging in the sort of anti-feminism diatribe.

When has Dawkins been anti-feminist?

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17-12-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: Dawkins and criticism.
(17-12-2014 03:34 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 03:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  engaging in the sort of anti-feminism diatribe.

When has Dawkins been anti-feminist?

Somewhere around the time, he posted tweets trivializing sexual harassment, and date rape, which begun around the time of the whole Dear Muslima spew.
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