DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
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12-02-2014, 09:18 AM
DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
Long story ahead. You like long stories? I do.

There is an online man called Stef. He tells people to talk to their families about how they feel. If people feel happy and satisfied with their family relationships, good! But it isn't always the case. Sometimes the families are not good or happy, yet as in the tale of the naked emperor, nobody is allowed to say that they are not happy, or he will be the one unhappy or guilty of making everyone unhappy. No wonder that the most good and honest people in such families are the least happy.

FOO is the short for Family Of Origin. De-FOOing is not what people do voluntarily, it's what families do when you ask the difficult questions. It is a non-religious equivalent of de-conversion from Christianity. I've never had a problem with my parents worldview-wise. Intellectually speaking, we were all on the same page, pretty much. That's why this family lasted for so long and ended so abruptly, there wasn't much friction in the minds, though the basis of feeling was all rotten.

All this denial, criticism, rejection, ostracism, veiled threats, special pleading, brow-beating, conformity demands, bargaining and balancing sins and virtues, and so on. You know these things from de-converting, but parents use these tactics when their own religion, their own cult is at stake.
For many of you it was a great dilemma how is it possible to be good without God. I face the same dilemma of being good without sucking up to parents.

Obey, or else! These words of God, parents and the government are one and the same. They all represent a corrupt center of absolute power and moral propaganda, one that causes much more harm that it actually prevents. Can you be a proper atheist without being also a deFOOed anarchist? I must wonder. I had this idea before. These Atheism Plus folks had it too. Rejecting supernatural dictatorship is only a part, rejecting a genetic and executive dictatorship is all part of true morality and integrity.
Absolute power is evil in all forms. Nobody has the right to initiate violence. More violence of another kind does not correct wrongs, is not justified. Being attacked by authority does not make us wrong. If we can bear the violence without espousing it and passing it to others, we are truly strong and virtuous.

Many families have their mythologies about some family members being good and virtuous (usually those in power) and some family members being bad, sick, rebellious, clumsy, careless, forgetful, mistaken, good for nothing lazy fucks. Normally this is not the case, but anyone can become instantly transformed from a good kid the bad apple at the moral authority's whim. We are so desperate to be good, that those who control goodness, control us, our bodies, minds and feelings so completely, that we do not even realize it. To be controlled is to be moral, independence is immoral. The control goes so deep, that it never needs be actually said outright - only implied. We take it for our own and resent those who don't - but those usually became wannabe moral authority bullies on their own. Until they procreate, no-one (such as siblings) will take their whining seriously, but their future potential children will be likely scared witless and shitless of them. That's what children do, their best to survive and learn the poison of parents.

I am so unhappy and lonely, that intellectually speaking, grizzly bear wrestling is my idea of having a peaceful fun time with people. I am the guy who stands against everything you believe in. And I am here to learn about your beliefs, so that I can stand against everything some other people believe in. Intellectually speaking, I am not a pleasant person. I am haunted.
Can you then imagine my rage, horror, bloodlust and triumph at having discovered the very real ghosts haunting me? I spent many years sharpening my teeth and finally there's something big to sink them into. I really have no patience after 25 years that sucked. Show me a can of worms and I will hack it apart.
I don't want any mercy with my parents, only justice. Yes, there still are financial ties. I don't know if these will hold. If it came to the worst, I am not without possibilities, so I can throw caution to the wind.


For days or weeks, I'm having these times when I feel pressure and must shake, but I feel nothing. Then I must cry and/or laugh, but I still feel nothing. The feeling nothing is both a good reason for crying or laughing. I contemplate people's stories and past wrongs and I finally feel the feelings, the wrongs and the outrage of what was done to me. It is very painful and not just emotionally. Broken heart physically hurts and there is supposed to be some neuron center on solar plexus, that hurts too. But it is all a good kind of pain, a pain of rehabilitation, not injury. Injuries were worse. This is a liberating, exhilarating kind of pain.
I am literally re-wiring my brain and probably a part of the nerve system as well.
All that involves great amounts of meditation, as ever. This is something I am somewhat good at and I think it is actually a necessity. Re-wiring neurons consumes a lot of energy, it is a full time job, a discipline of its own. Another pre-requisite is an above-average IQ. I need to be able to think in ways than average person would not think, and 10 or 20 IQ points above average makes the difference between us and our parents. It's like having or not having a graphics card installed.
Another necessity is to have a lot of free time, basic material security and of course, good knowledge of English and access to the internet.
This is why very, very, very few people ever de-FOO, lose faith in God, change their political orientation, change their views on economy, morality, parenting or become in a finer sense creative.

So what did I do? I talked on the phone to my mom. I went easy on her, in the early stages. I described what I learn of morality and philosophy... Then I summed up something of my feelings... Well, I ended up crying, I haven't planned on that. Mom sent me a message she loves me. I replied in kind. But then I haven't heard from her a long time. Suspicious, I had read more on logic and philosophy. Turns out, this is not how love works. If she loved me, she'd be curious about me and eager to help me with my pain. Nothing I said should make much difference, if she really loved me. By all evidence, she does not love me. She wants and needs my company and help, but that is not love. That is so conditional. And that was a hard pill to swallow. When my mom needed some help with computer stuff, she talked to me about some supplements she'd get me - I replied, that my problems are not so physical, rather emotional and connected with her personally.
To that she sent me an absolutely vile e-mail, basically don't sweat it, get over it, forgive, that's what adults do, that's what all my relatives did, get over old wrongdoings. Well, no remorse, no interest or curiosity, no love, and she's still making up the rules of morality as they fit her. I wrote her as much and more than that. I don't ever want to get over wrongdoings if that means I'd condone hurting children - as she did or as my older brother probably will.

Meanwhile, my dad wrote an e-mail after a long while. He wants a divorce, no wonder. Yes, I'm mad at him for having an affair and breaking the family. But now I see it in a greater context. I'm mad at him for my whole upbringing and never once siding with children against my mom and her fake morality and real wrath. Looks like he is the classy example of like mother, like wife, hen-pecked in everything but the most manly matters - money, technology and house management.
Yes, I'm furious and it feels great. These people are supposed to be adults?

So what the hell do I want from my old folks? Honesty and remorse. Lots and lots of it. Honesty means vulnerability and I have never ever seen my folks show vulnerability. Only my dad, when he was moving out. Upbringing is something they inflicted upon children, and their lack of knowledge on what upbringing is, they compensated with bullying into duties.
I refuse to tolerate any taboo topics. It infuriates me there are any taboo topics in my family. I never asked for these. I remember as a child stopping just short from topics that I felt would endanger my relationship with mom, that is - make her angry - and then I didn't remember what these were.

My folks are NOT morally superior. I do not owe them anything. Parental relationship does not come with a price tag, it's not voluntary. If anything, they need to pay for lots of therapy and lost years without my Humanity 101.

Well, turns out my dad wrote back. He's completely understanding and admitting all mistakes. I don't know what to do. There's too much on my hands right now.

What you guys can do, is perhaps offer some advice. Expertise on the mysterious process of re-wiring. Whatever I think of, laughter at absurdity of this all is never far away and I can feel a little bit of tears in my eyes every so often. I must shake, there seems to be a lot of emotion that I can't feel, but it's there. There are flares of emotion, if I think and put it into words though. But what if I run out of words? Big Grin Fat chance of that, you must think Tongue But seriously, most of the Google links are ridden up with woo. I am familiar enough with woo to know that it doesn't show us what we don't want to see, so its use is very limited. Is there anything I can do, besides what I already do and waiting?

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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12-02-2014, 10:39 AM
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
Not my area of expertise, but hang in there Lumi. Hug

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13-02-2014, 09:19 PM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2014 09:26 PM by Vipa.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(12-02-2014 09:18 AM)Luminon Wrote:  What you guys can do, is perhaps offer some advice. Expertise on the mysterious process of re-wiring. Whatever I think of, laughter at absurdity of this all is never far away and I can feel a little bit of tears in my eyes every so often. I must shake, there seems to be a lot of emotion that I can't feel, but it's there. There are flares of emotion, if I think and put it into words though. But what if I run out of words? Big Grin Fat chance of that, you must think Tongue But seriously, most of the Google links are ridden up with woo. I am familiar enough with woo to know that it doesn't show us what we don't want to see, so its use is very limited. Is there anything I can do, besides what I already do and waiting?

Have you already read one of Alice Miller's books? If so, what do you think of her work?
She concentrates on the things you write as far as I can see. She doesn't just concentrate on physical but also on mental harm with which parents abuse their children - conditional love etc.
Ironically not only was she a victim but she herself failed miserably with her own kids which may be the very reason she wrote all of her books.

Probably you've seen this one too, but just in case: Adverse Childhood Experiences Study

(Un-)fortunately I can't give you advice on rewiring, because I've had plenty of luck with my parents... However just reading or general studies about something is probably the best way? It's how worldviews change so probably it's also how your "de-FOO-ing" works. Someone I know is currently in psychotherapy to get rid of her mother's bad / lack of influence in her childhood (not that her childhood was all that bad in contrast to others, but it seems this was enough to generate future problems), and according to her it helps a lot. Obviously if you're capable of doing it yourself then by all means.
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16-02-2014, 12:25 PM (This post was last modified: 16-02-2014 12:32 PM by Luminon.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(13-02-2014 09:19 PM)Vipa Wrote:  Have you already read one of Alice Miller's books? If so, what do you think of her work?
She concentrates on the things you write as far as I can see. She doesn't just concentrate on physical but also on mental harm with which parents abuse their children - conditional love etc.
Ironically not only was she a victim but she herself failed miserably with her own kids which may be the very reason she wrote all of her books.
Her books sound a lot like the things that Stefan deals with. So I'm well-supplied on that side. Maybe your greatest help is letting me talk about this stuff in an anonymous way. Since I'm banned from that forum for disagreeing with people Tongue This video about sums up half of my experiences there.




(13-02-2014 09:19 PM)Vipa Wrote:  Probably you've seen this one too, but just in case: Adverse Childhood Experiences Study

(Un-)fortunately I can't give you advice on rewiring, because I've had plenty of luck with my parents... However just reading or general studies about something is probably the best way? It's how worldviews change so probably it's also how your "de-FOO-ing" works. Someone I know is currently in psychotherapy to get rid of her mother's bad / lack of influence in her childhood (not that her childhood was all that bad in contrast to others, but it seems this was enough to generate future problems), and according to her it helps a lot. Obviously if you're capable of doing it yourself then by all means.
Thanks for the advice and congratulations. Unfortunately, I can't find any such materials you're talking about. Mostly it's just weak tests, mostly about physical abuse. There was a share of that, but mostly it was a total mindfuck. I think that currently I'm better served by callers on the Freedomain radio show, who focus mostly on the mindfuck and idenfitying it.

Well, my best take on re-wiring is the Laya yoga meditation. It worked fine until I got to some nasty stuff that didn't come out unless I verbalized it and went through some very difficult e-mails and conversations. Now it looks like Laya yoga works again. That was quick, man. I'd like to know if that's normal. Well, I did Laya yoga for years and past year very very intensely, so perhaps it wasn't that quick after all.

Anyway, my dad called. I found out some things about my folks' marriage and turns out it was a greater nightmare than I thought. I coped with it by withdrawal, so no wonder I missed half of the nasty stuff, at a price of self-erasing. A yogurt culture had more personality than me.
Btw, my dad also said he's thinking of getting a stomach bypass surgery, because his obesity is getting dangerous. (the surgery bypasses a meter or so of the small gut) Now I know where the word "father" comes from, it's from the word "fat" and who's fault is it - "her". Big Grin Drinking Beverage

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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16-02-2014, 09:25 PM (This post was last modified: 16-02-2014 09:35 PM by Vipa.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
Okay, not that I would agree with your conclusions about the material - obviously, but whatever helps best I guess ^^ Looking forward to your future defooing posts


(I'll just leave this here anyway: http://acestudy.org/download)
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19-02-2014, 06:06 PM
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(16-02-2014 09:25 PM)Vipa Wrote:  Okay, not that I would agree with your conclusions about the material - obviously, but whatever helps best I guess ^^ Looking forward to your future defooing posts


(I'll just leave this here anyway: http://acestudy.org/download)
I just heard, Stef recommends Alice Miller and John Bradshaw books. I'll be sure to get some. There's just so much work. I did so much work on the inside, yet on the outside stuff I didn't even scratch a surface of problems. Of course the only way to that is to figure out the inner game, or it's just a facade. Anyway, the inner game proved to be several orders of magnitude worse than I expected. I must laugh as my sense of proportion slips away. It's just ridiculous beyond imagining how much work does it take to be truly OK. If we ever saw ourselves as we really are, we'd shit our pants and shake for a few nights. The only reason why people don't know that, is because they go with the flow. You can be fucked up almost indefinitely, as long as you can go with the flow, that's how evolution does it, no matter how many diseases have, if you can pass on your genes, who cares.

But with the knowledge I have now, it feels like walking around with guns. In a world in which people don't believe there are such things as guns. Items that can kill people? Nah, I don't believe in that.
There are weak thoughts and there are powerful, thus dangerous thoughts. As far as thoughts are concerned, I am the dealer in weapons, drugs, medicine, poisons, porno and martial art manuals. I don't buy or sell groceries or drugstore stuff like most people. People think their slightly weird classmate sells bread and paint like them, because they don't know anything else exists. They have respect towards thoughts of scientific technology, but they have no idea that there are such things as moral technology and consciousness technology. They have no perspective and I lose perspective myself on how different I am. I suddenly realize how toothless, how balls-less, how useless is 95 % of all state and parent education I've ever seen. None of that is empowering and most of it is dis-empowering. So when I get to some empowering stuff, I am like a terrorist armed to the teeth and people get hurt and scared when I show them some stuff I have in stock.

Anyway, if you want to hear some deFOOing, as I have long suspected, my parents, especially my mom, is/are immature. I remember being little kid playing with plush animals. And when my mom joined in to play, she'd take a plush animal, play her part and talk in a thin voice as a toy plush animal would, it struck me as a couple of years younger, below my age. That's right, I was a child and I thought my mom is childish.
And of course it's a very immature thing to freak out about things we don't like and damage real people for that. An adult that thinks he or she has the right to break into torrents of verbal diarrhoea at the family members every so often because of material things that don't hurt anybody, is not an adult. A clean house is a nice thing to have, but it's not worth of torturing children and husband for years to get it and after a year or so an adult would notice that it doesn't work anyway.
In retrospect, I think my mom saw me as a source of affection for her immature self - affection yes, but strictly conditional. A toy isn't allowed to talk back. I almost wish I could time travel back to my teens, wait till my mom freaks out and then told her to shut the fuck up that fuckin' loud face and act like an adult and treat me like a person. It would probably be worth it.
Remember, next time you see an adult freaking out and not treating a child as a person, that's a facade.

So, without Stefan Molyneux I wouldn't realize any of this. He's one of the greatest guys I know of. He's up there with my personal pantheon of people who changed the world of me, whom I will remember forever. People like Jacque Freso, whom I respect endlessly. That would be about... 3 people in total, people who deeply changed my life. Anyone's life, he's got a message that we all need to know. If you wish to do something real with your life, go to http://freedomainradio.com/ , grab some stuff, listen, donate... This stuff is stronger than extreme sports because it's meaningful. Jumping on a rubber rope is ultimately just bullshit, but learning and practicing truth will change your life, the core of your being, all relationships.

THIS is the religion that atheists have been looking for all the time. Fuck yeah.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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19-02-2014, 11:12 PM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2014 12:22 AM by Vipa.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(19-02-2014 06:06 PM)Luminon Wrote:  And when my mom joined in to play, she'd take a plush animal, play her part and talk in a thin voice as a toy plush animal would, it struck me as a couple of years younger, below my age.
Could you explain a bit why that makes her immature / why this is not a good way to interact with a child?


(19-02-2014 06:06 PM)Luminon Wrote:  A clean house is a nice thing to have, but it's not worth of torturing children and husband for years to get it and after a year or so an adult would notice that it doesn't work anyway.
Haha yes, I'm of the other extreme some times (concerning a clean house) ~.~ not good either...


(19-02-2014 06:06 PM)Luminon Wrote:  In retrospect, I think my mom saw me as a source of affection for her immature self - affection yes, but strictly conditional. [...]
Remember, next time you see an adult freaking out and not treating a child as a person, that's a facade.
I don't understand - a facade?
But (imo) she certainly didn't do a good job... freaking out is just pointless and conditional love is probably the worst you can do to a child...


(19-02-2014 06:06 PM)Luminon Wrote:  So, without Stefan Molyneux I wouldn't realize any of this. He's one of the greatest guys I know of.

THIS is the religion that atheists have been looking for all the time. Fuck yeah.

ahh.. now I know who that is, ok. I like much of what he has to say about upbringing (seen some videos). But I strongly disagree with his overall worldview.

And I couldn't agree more with the religion part of your last sentence; it really is a religion. But I haven't been looking for it Tongue
Don't you think it's kind of sad that you had to hear it from your god first to at least consider my recommendations?
But since you listen to his word: The ACE study yet again (I know, annoyingly stubborn, but hey now it's in Stefan's words!). It's just information and not necessarily help, but it may help anyway to understand what damage may have been done to you.





Hope you keed posting, I find it interesting to read about your steps of deconversion.
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20-02-2014, 11:53 AM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2014 03:07 PM by Luminon.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(19-02-2014 11:12 PM)Vipa Wrote:  Could you explain a bit why that makes her immature / why this is not a good way to interact with a child?
When playing with a child, we should accommodate the play style to age of the child, or it won't work. It's not good to play out our lost childhood on real children, it's using them as toys. If the immaturity gap is noticeable and I assure you it's super-obvious, the child will feel confused, perhaps insulted and will quickly lose respect for the parent. Certainly we should not release our inner immaturity that way, that's job for a psychologist.

(19-02-2014 11:12 PM)Vipa Wrote:  I don't understand - a facade?
But (imo) she certainly didn't do a good job... freaking out is just pointless and conditional love is probably the worst you can do to a child...
Facade. An adult freaking out at a child is something no true adult should ever do - yet that person is posing like an adult, claiming full authority and claiming that his or her wishes are the moral standard and the child is immoral if not conforming. Freaking out will replace the child's respect with fear. And that is abuse, as sure as if the parent would mix bits of rat poison into the food. You know that, of course.


(19-02-2014 11:12 PM)Vipa Wrote:  ahh.. now I know who that is, ok. I like much of what he has to say about upbringing (seen some videos). But I strongly disagree with his overall worldview.

And I couldn't agree more with the religion part of your last sentence; it really is a religion. But I haven't been looking for it Tongue
Don't you think it's kind of sad that you had to hear it from your god first to at least consider my recommendations?
Tell me more please. Where he's wrong? I truly like disagreement, just look at my reputation. If you knew me, I am the most irreverent, non-conforming bastard out there. My loyalty always comes with a huge dose of criticism, learned from people whom I have criticized earlier. It is impossible to enthrall such a guy - or be friends with him, frankly speaking. And I welcome all criticism, I have no problem with that as long as it's accurate, because it's can't be worse than what do to myself.

I am a long time critic of Stefan. Just because I admire him doesn't mean I can't or don't want to kick his ass in a discussion if that pushes him into the future instead of his annying early 20th century self-made man mindset. Flynn effect stand with me, I am possibly smarter than him, certainly I can learn what he does and I can learn it faster, although unfortunately he probably can't learn all the things I know. I can learn from multiple people that would be mutually totally incompatible and sometimes openly hate each other. I can see beyond their petty differences and... my pantheon is more like the Greek one, where the gods are by no means perfect.

I think Stefan does not understand semantics, paradigms and Resource-Based Economy. Yet he think he does, which is his blind spot. He was always so good at the business world, that he can't think of alternatives. His IQ goes down 50 points when RBE is discussed, because he thinks there is a moral problem, while it's really just too much of technical information to take in at once, a whole paradigm and language. He thinks his language is good enough for everything and it's not, not for the really extreme things that he does not understand. I don't think he knows what a paradigm is, he really needs to read Thomas Kuhn and maybe some Foucault. But as I said, it's a technical problem, not moral. Yeah, and I'm banned from his forum Big Grin

No, what I actually meant is, that his philosophy is the stuff that atheists really need to overcome religion. Right now, they do it in a very provisional way - using empirical science. Empirical science tells us about stars and how we evolved, but it tells us nothing about our daily behavior and relationships. We can apply logic in discussion with a creationist, but not with our significant others. That really sucks and it explains a lot why do people come here and ask about the things they are missing from religion - such as guidance. Atheist is not even a positive word, it should rather mean "more normal", that is, a believer in one less belief. So atheism can't help us much in daily life. We're not taught to use logic and other philosophy in daily life.
I've had this criticism for a long time - atheists make sense in question of god and technical, scientific questions. But they have no idea about economy, politics, military, life style and so on, this is where logic ends and whatever goes. There was this initiative "Atheism +" and it made sense sort of to me, only it was hijacked by a cult of female supremacy and political correctness or something. So I see the need is there and people are constantly trying to fill that niche, the emptiness in their hearts - or others claim there is no such problem, but their lives are no happier.

Many skeptics take science as a fetish without actually using it. Smoking causes cancer, obesity is due to caloric intake, DUH. But they never wonder why do people smoke or overeat. Right now I listen to the Bomb in the brain II video - and there is an enormous overwhelming causality between child abuse, rape and so on and obesity and smoking, documented in the ACE study. THIS is what I'd call science. This is why I am so critical to everyone - nobody is even remotely rational about everything, not even those who claim to be rational. Rationalists are like Christians, they put Jesus on pedestal and worship him, so that they don't have to do what he said.

(19-02-2014 11:12 PM)Vipa Wrote:  But since you listen to his word: The ACE study yet again (I know, annoyingly stubborn, but hey now it's in Stefan's words!). It's just information and not necessarily help, but it may help anyway to understand what damage may have been done to you.





Hope you keed posting, I find it interesting to read about your steps of deconversion.
Thanks. I'm listening to that right now. Without Stefan I don't know what to do with that study. I just get a score of 4 in the test, what next? Looks like nothing to me. I need Stefan's videos to tell me what that means and what to do. If that means I should think and talk and write the experiences out and re-live them in a relaxed state under the gentle voice of a therapist (or Stefan's podcasts), that's what I already do.

Only you can't see most of that, mostly it's not something that could be shared... I've got some experience with regression therapy and lots of experience with Laya yoga. Laya yoga feels rather strange, not easy to describe unless you're into Indian or Chinese medicine. There are visceral sensation of things that do not exist by the best knowledge of western medicine and I had to dig deep and search for years to come up with western medical evidence that Laya yoga is real stuff.
And regression therapy makes lots of sense too. Mom, repressed as she is, did regression therapy for many years, but never on emotional problems. She is afraid of emotional depth as Christian is afraid of New Age. She focused solely on physical, psycho-somatic problems. What a bummer, don't you think? I've been through regression therapy several times, but it never worked for me. I didn't cry, I didn't wail in pain and anguish, as most of my mom's clients did. Pretty much nothing happened and it was always over in an hour. But usually, it's what supposed to happen, old trauma is playing out on real emotional and physical feelings. Now I know what it's like.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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20-02-2014, 02:40 PM
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
Quote:I think Stefan does not understand [...] Resource-Based Economy

Well, then I've got nothing to say. Your text just left me with the impression of someone who's just as religious about a person as others are of jesus - seemingly not the case, sorry Wink

Yes most of what you're going through would probably be difficult to describe, but the bits you've shared have been interesting nonetheless.
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21-02-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(20-02-2014 02:40 PM)Vipa Wrote:  
Quote:I think Stefan does not understand [...] Resource-Based Economy

Well, then I've got nothing to say. Your text just left me with the impression of someone who's just as religious about a person as others are of jesus - seemingly not the case, sorry Wink

Yes most of what you're going through would probably be difficult to describe, but the bits you've shared have been interesting nonetheless.
Well, I'm not religious. And I don't feel comfortable being thought of as religious in any sense or pigeon-holed in some way. I just don't think it's accurate. Stefan's got some goodies of wisdom that I really, really want, because they unlock my potential, I just know it. A year ago and earlier it was Jacque Fresco. I absorbed the gist of his wisdom and continued. A couple years from now I will be learning from someone else and utilizing the old wisdom. I don't know where I will stop, where my learning slows down or stop and I become a teacher or a stepping stone for other people.
You could actually say that I "worship" Fresco more than Stefan, because I can't really think of much to criticize about Fresco, while I can think of a plenty to criticize Stefan.

You could just as well make a claim that I am an irrational believer in occultism. That's an even more private hobby of mine. But when I read the occult books (technical details on Laya yoga and so on), I laugh my ass off sometimes, because I make fun of them too, whenever I can.

I think the word you look for is passionate or enthusiastic. The difference is, I compare what I learn with everything else I know, I think critically about everything and I make fun of it whenever possible. I don't know really why. So far I wasn't able to find any deeper significance in humor. I know its evolutionary origin, I know it's supposed to be a sign of intelligence, I know in some cases it is a way of distancing from the pain, but I know it's not always the case, so I don't really know why do I laugh at that which I revere. Maybe it's a way of making sure I destroy all imperfect expressions of words and revere only the essence of truth and reality that can not be expressed in words.

But looks like religion managed to hijack your concepts of passion and enthusiasm. Are we atheists supposed to be calm, sober, stern, morose, emotionless, a life of facts - or emotional, but whimsical and vague, just so that we do not make any factual claim about life and so don't face any criticism from the former?
Atheism is ultimately the act of destruction. I know a lot about destruction, it leaves gaps in our being. And these gaps can not be filled with dead pieces of facts, or by methods and instruments wielded by distant arch-bishops in white lab coats. We need to gain our own contact with the positive existence of reality, our own influence on our life, or we won't recover from religion entirely. We need to believe in our own reason again, trust it to recognize the reality in all that we do, in all areas of our life. It's not about quantity or quality of knowledge, but about taking back some means of production of knowledge for our personal use from the bourgeois knowledge class, as Marxists would say. As Marxists would say, the problem is alienation of the means of production of knowledge from the learners, that is us. Someone else decides what to research and what to write about, not us. No matter how big their microscopes and cyclotrons are, they turn us into consumers of journal articles, as we before were consumers of Sunday sermons. We need to become scientists of our own life, but more than that, science has no purpose or meaning, it's just an instrument. Emptiness can not be filled by collecting instruments. That is the domain of philosophy and to be a thinker and user of science with purpose requires to be a philosopher. A scientist without philosophy is just an artisan. Even atheists need to start earning their own salvation.
These are my own thoughts and my notoriously dialectical mind makes me use religious terms when talking to an atheist, just as I would use the language of atheism when talking to a Christian. It's just a habit. A bad habit probably, I don't know. You tell me. Is it a big turnoff to read philosophically-religiously-poetical ramblings, seriously meant, but ashamed for in the morning? I generally let my muse fly free, but you tell me if her wings need to be clipped.

And you still haven't told me what interesting faults did you manage to find on Molyneux. Share some dirt, please! I'm getting curious Tongue

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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