DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
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21-02-2014, 12:44 PM
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(21-02-2014 10:20 AM)Luminon Wrote:  But looks like religion managed to hijack your concepts of passion and enthusiasm. Are we atheists supposed to be calm, sober, stern, morose, emotionless, a life of facts - or emotional, but whimsical and vague, just so that we do not make any factual claim about life and so don't face any criticism from the former?

And you still haven't told me what interesting faults did you manage to find on Molyneux. Share some dirt, please! I'm getting curious Tongue

No I do understand enthusiasm, it's just that your initial text about stefan felt like it was written by someone who follows him blindly and sees him as a flawless being - hence the religion remark Wink - which you obviously do not.
But I personally (I understand that it's normal) can't understand how one can be passionate about a person (one doesn't know personally). No judgement, it's just something I never understood. I can see if someone has great ideas etc. but I never cared for the person saying them, solely for the ideas themselves... I know I'm the broken one here Tongue

Sorry I can't share dirt, because I stopped looking/listening after a while. I simply disagree with his views on economy, the state etc. But there's no point to get specific because I would have to review his stuff again first - my bias is too far left to have kept the specifics Tongue . Maybe sometime in another thread with a more specific topic on the table.

But +1 for Fresco!
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21-02-2014, 05:31 PM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2014 06:13 PM by Luminon.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(21-02-2014 12:44 PM)Vipa Wrote:  No I do understand enthusiasm, it's just that your initial text about stefan felt like it was written by someone who follows him blindly and sees him as a flawless being - hence the religion remark Wink - which you obviously do not.
Ah, I see. That's a frequent problem. If I think about something so much, then I explain stuff starting from the most valuable conclusions, not describing the slow and laborious process of learning and work that led to them. To an outside observer it looks like I'd just spout some random ideology that someone just made up, just like everyone else does. So people get wary. Everyone likes some random made up ideology with no basis in fact, but only if it happens to be their own.
People have no idea what philosophy is, logical reasoning from undeniable first principles into necessary, meaningful and groundbreaking conclusions. They can not imagine such a thing is even remotely possible. Thus they assume I spout some random made up ideology and apparently not theirs, which is a cause for alarm and amygdala flight or fight reaction that blocks learning process.

That's another knowledge of Stefan's btw. Not your case, but I could tell you about some very interesting and frustrating 4 months of debating a Libertarian online, who was totally defensive and brainlocked. Neither of us gave way, but we did managed to bring down the web page with the sheer weight of our posts! I won, because I had it saved on my computers shortly before it became inaccessible Big Grin

You might ask, why did I persist so long if there was clearly no way to convince him? Well, he had a memory of a goldfish and didn't know anything, so I had to repeat myself. But I can answer you with a parable.
Once upon a time there was a computer program, an AI simulation of psychologist. Lots of psychologists just ask "tell me more about X", "hmm, that's interesting", and so on. It was meant to serve as an online service to people who did not know it's not a real live psychologist on the other end. But then, there were employees who used the program to talk. They knew the AI is not a real person, they worked on pieces of its code, yet they talked to it like to a real person. They said that it really helps them to express their issues, put them into words and deal with them....
(I think it was a Radiolab podcast issue)

So how did I learn from Stefan something so fundamentally different, being originally totally against Capitalism and studying state law? Learning another economic theory is like learning another language. It can not be done with reason, because you don't know what knowledge is in the language before you learn it. You can only overstep your own paradigm with passion for truth. I went on as an enthusiastic crusader to bring the light of reason and The Venus Project to the poor, sad, mistaken Anarcho-Capitalists. If I am wrong, I will learn some truth, if they are wrong, they will learn truth, so it's a win/win either way. Long story short, I reasoned with them and saw that inside their own paradigm they make as much sense as I do in mine, at least as far as the present world is concerned. However, I am a walker among paradigms, they are not, so I still get to feel superior Big Grin

(21-02-2014 12:44 PM)Vipa Wrote:  But I personally (I understand that it's normal) can't understand how one can be passionate about a person (one doesn't know personally). No judgement, it's just something I never understood. I can see if someone has great ideas etc. but I never cared for the person saying them, solely for the ideas themselves... I know I'm the broken one here Tongue
If this is a contest in brokenness, then thanks to listening to countless podcasts I know Stefan better than my family. My family members never spoke with such length and honesty about themselves, mostly it was family mythology. My parents both spoke much about their parents, but made themselves look totally different and good from their own awful ancestry, which is of course a lie. Dad admitted it to me, my mom is very much like his mom - only his mom fortunately died when he was in his teens. Men in his side of the family have a habit of dying on prostate cancer, obviously a psychosomatic disease caused by toxic nagging of evil mothers and wives.
Me and my brothers don't talk to each other. We see no damn reason what for. I don't know who my brothers hang out with and they don't know who do I hang out with on the net. Neither of us wonders. Yes, we can be completely fucked up without even noticing.
But consider, that is a classical gambit of religion - all religions are the same pattern of sin and savior, yet to their followers their religion seems unique and rational, while others are different and irrational. I remember Seth Andrews describing religions as a Mexican cuisine. No matter what you order, it's some combination of ground beef, tortilla, salsa, salad and spice.

I did however contact my older brother and had with him the first honest talk anybody gave him perhaps in his life. I sent him some e-mails with my parents and his girlfriend said she's interested in non-violent parenting, so I sent him several books, web resources plus extra long commentary, because they're not very good at English.

I think it was the first mature thing anyone ever did in my family Drinking Beverage

(21-02-2014 12:44 PM)Vipa Wrote:  Sorry I can't share dirt, because I stopped looking/listening after a while. I simply disagree with his views on economy, the state etc. But there's no point to get specific because I would have to review his stuff again first - my bias is too far left to have kept the specifics Tongue . Maybe sometime in another thread with a more specific topic on the table.

But +1 for Fresco!
Ah. I was quite curious, because I learned a stateless economy (Austrian school) at one private university and it really did make lots of sense. The lessons were taught by the dean himself and they were super-interesting and well-founded in facts. Before I was taught a standard mindless hogwash of neo-Keynesian rules and state socialism and interventions. But at a private college I learned that state taxes and interventions are like taking blood from one arm of the body and giving transfusion to the other arm, while spilling half the blood on the floor. (a Peter Schiff quote)

I actually think I managed to unite Anarcho-Capitalism and Resource-Based economy. Well, not unite but put them both into greater context where both make sense. Of course, Capitalism only makes sense historically or when compared to central planning of the socialistic state, which is worse, because the state is corrupt and central government never has nearly as much information as all the brains on the market combined, thus it can never get things right. Socialistic planning of the state is... I don't know if you watched the old serial MASH 4077 with Alan Alda, but the politics of welfare state remind me of the army supplies and bureaucracy n Korean war. Lots of lacking, wasted, wrong, misplaced, stolen, forbidden and low-grade military material, lots of black market, corruption and whimsical bureaucrats. Keynes would turn in his grave if he saw what the state did with his legacy, according to the rule that anything worth doing is worth doing in excess.

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25-02-2014, 05:23 AM
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
Put some music on.




Long story short, I have just realized my own worthlessness. Let's see the long story now.

My older brother is a bully. He walks around, slamming doors, barking at people (only family, not at like... real people), talks trash about everything. His tone of voice feels constantly on edge, he almost never relaxes, almost never thanks, never apologizes, always argues.

I knew there is a deep vulnerability in him, that he is compensating outwardly by rough behavior. That much is true, but it is not precise. It's not just some abstract vulnerability. It is his great and well-founded conviction of being totally worthless and inadequate to the family. From this inadequacy follows his conviction that there is nothing anybody would ever do for him as a favor, from love or a good relationship. Hence, if he ever needs or wants anything as all people do, he has to bully people into it. He can not do small talk, because he believes he is worthless of anyone hanging out with him. So his idea of small talk is criticizing and slandering something bad - something external, so that everyone has to agree with him, that's his idea of closeness.

You know what? God, the theosophical pantheistic naturalistic M-Theoretic God be praised for my dialectical mind that flips and mirrors like Hegel on LSD.
Because I see I am like that as well. Holy fucking shit.

I am deeply convinced, again on very reasonable grounds of growing up in a toxic, immature family, that I am worthless and all love I receive is conditional. If I deeply, subconsciously believe in my personal inadequacy of anyone being interested in me personally for my own self, then of course I have nothing to share, nothing to do with anyone, nothing to talk about. If I need something, I have to have something real, not myself, but something objective, external, if possible, logical, intellectual, even critical to share. So I am this impossibly knowledgeable big fucking academic library walking around with lots of fuckin' books on any goddamn topic you can imagine, all for one reason. My older brother hangs out with people by criticizing something - well, I do too. I can criticize the hell out of lots of things, because there's a lot of emptiness to fill. I can agree or disagree at will with anyone about anything, I learned to see things from many perspectives, because, what a goddamn danger, at one moment topics would run out and then I'd be again totally alone, having absolutely no fucking reason to hang out with anybody. Because I'm worthless.

Put some more music on.




OK, I refused to connect through violence (because I hate violence and I think violence is wrong and I hated those who forced me even to defend myself) and sure as hell I could not learn about unconditional relationships and free expression of self in my family. Emotions are not a peep show, you can not switch them off when the payment of worth runs out. Either there is a constant interplay of emotions in relationship, or there is no relationship. So if somebody, like my mother or father says, that's it, you've got bad grades, or the house doesn't look clean enough, so no more love for you today or tomorrow, the peep show aperture closed, insert another coin please, well, the emotions will never flow. There can not be a relationship or closeness that can and is torn off at random intervals because of arbitrary house rules. That is like lovingly holding hands in a piranha aquarium. That is why conditional love is poison, why it's evil. Because it's torture. If something can be taken away from you at any moment, you learn to live without it and then enjoy the brief periods while it lasts and don't resent too much the periods of horror when it doesn't last, or there will be only endless horror - or death, our evolution taught us. It's all of course intentionally orchestrated by the parents who cause the horror and sever the love, like psychos who keep some people in their basement.

Conditional love puts some thing above the person, the person is inherently worthless unless some other condition is fulfilled. Thus an evil person controls others by destroying their self-worth, by becoming the sole source of goodness and love. Of course such an evil person profits from driving all the other people away under various pretenses, or from bringing up children who have a problem with relationships. No fuckin' motivation to help them with that!
So intellectual outlet for me it is.

Of course, that is true for my mom, my dad and everyone else. My mom did not believe we'd do anything for her voluntarily for her worthless self, so she had to enslave us. And slaves don't do anything voluntarily and feel worthless.

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25-02-2014, 11:40 PM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2014 11:47 PM by Vipa.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(25-02-2014 05:23 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I learned to see things from many perspectives, because, what a goddamn danger, at one moment topics would run out and then I'd be again totally alone, having absolutely no fucking reason to hang out with anybody. Because I'm worthless.
I can't help but wonder.. are you an extrovert or would you like to have people around without talking?
E.g. gaming (pc, tabletop, whatever) is a good way to connect without having to talk too much yet still hang out with people you like.
Or what about clubs? They would still be there for a common interest even if you didn't talk all the time?
All I'm saying there are possibilities to connect even if you still happen to feel like you're worthless as soon as you stop talking.

(25-02-2014 05:23 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Put some more music on.

Well, at least the music is fairly good Tongue


(25-02-2014 05:23 AM)Luminon Wrote:  It's all of course intentionally orchestrated by the parents who cause the horror and sever the love, like psychos who keep some people in their basement.

Conditional love puts some thing above the person, the person is inherently worthless unless some other condition is fulfilled. Thus an evil person controls others by destroying their self-worth, by becoming the sole source of goodness and love. Of course such an evil person profits from driving all the other people away under various pretenses, or from bringing up children who have a problem with relationships. No fuckin' motivation to help them with that!
So intellectual outlet for me it is.

Of course, that is true for my mom, my dad and everyone else. My mom did not believe we'd do anything for her voluntarily for her worthless self, so she had to enslave us. And slaves don't do anything voluntarily and feel worthless.

Is it intentional? I mean, sure they knowingly act the way they do, but so do alcoholics, people with depression etc.
If you're depressed you can know you are, you can even think you don't want to be depressed but nothing would change.
As you say, you're mom probably had similar experiences (because it's likely to be "hereditary" in a meme-way) and this may be the only way she knows of parenting or interacting with people. Doesn't make abuse less deplorable.
But sadly, some/most you can even confront (I confronted my neighbour some years ago because she used to be pretty much this way... - hitting her children, constantly yelling at them etc.) and they will still live in denial of everything. They will blame their children for their behaviour just as they were blamed as children. A never ending cycle, unless you break out, but, as you already know, in this case there's almost no chance to convince the perpetrator of his faults...
Hell often the victims themselves think "I turned out alright, can't be that harmful" - hence the cycle... Some said that even after showing them the ACE statistics. "System 1" (from Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow)/the unconscious reaction is just too powerful and tempting sometimes...
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26-02-2014, 06:21 PM (This post was last modified: 27-02-2014 04:55 AM by Luminon.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(25-02-2014 11:40 PM)Vipa Wrote:  I can't help but wonder.. are you an extrovert or would you like to have people around without talking?
E.g. gaming (pc, tabletop, whatever) is a good way to connect without having to talk too much yet still hang out with people you like.
Or what about clubs? They would still be there for a common interest even if you didn't talk all the time?
All I'm saying there are possibilities to connect even if you still happen to feel like you're worthless as soon as you stop talking.
I'm an introvert, unless there's some interesting topic around. I am topic-oriented, problem or task-oriented, not people-oriented. I AM not a person enough to know what to DO with other persons. That statement is already wrong, because hanging out is not about DOing something, it is about BEing. I could add various crap about doing some useful or intelligent things and being bored by people, but I know that's just effect and/or rationalization of my inability to just BE, to gravitate together by the weight of shared or similar personality. There's just not enough personality of my own. That's important, because hanging out is not about talking, it is about referring to shared experience or just knowing the experience is there.

I suppose to be able to just be we have to be loved for what we are, so we don't have to DO things all the time to be loved or noticed at all. Of course, these things we do or I do can not be by definition personal, because the personal is criticized and destroyed by the parents, they must have some "objective" worth, such as intellectual.

I like forums, because it is a small world divided into topics with labels. And to DO, which means to write, is to BE, on the internet it's the same thing.

Well, but as I contemplate it all day, it's quite a weird feeling. I must say, this Laya yoga thing certainly feels like it works. It's a feeling like my guts and lymphatic system was alternately drilled with dentist drill and flushed with hot injections of whiskey. And I feel a little different, like re-wired. I wonder what. Most of this progress so far gave some positive results, showed me the new way of thinking, but just for a while under great concentration, just to show that there is a way of behaving normally somewhere deep inside, but more work is required to make it stick, to make it work effortlessly.
Additionally, just recently I had several dreams in a row about a house, ocean and a burning furnace in the house. A big, humming furnace of central heating, that directs hot water all around the pipes... Nice metaphor Big Grin


(25-02-2014 11:40 PM)Vipa Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 05:23 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Put some more music on.
Well, at least the music is fairly good Tongue
Thanks, my music is very personal to me. Most of it can't be listened to in a polite company, but I've got lots of new albums from chillhop.com and these are the most normal things in my collection. This is just so... normal! And cheesy, in a good way.
http://brockberrigan.bandcamp.com/album/backwards-blues


(25-02-2014 11:40 PM)Vipa Wrote:  Is it intentional? I mean, sure they knowingly act the way they do, but so do alcoholics, people with depression etc.
If you're depressed you can know you are, you can even think you don't want to be depressed but nothing would change.
As you say, you're mom probably had similar experiences (because it's likely to be "hereditary" in a meme-way) and this may be the only way she knows of parenting or interacting with people. Doesn't make abuse less deplorable.
But sadly, some/most you can even confront (I confronted my neighbour some years ago because she used to be pretty much this way... - hitting her children, constantly yelling at them etc.) and they will still live in denial of everything. They will blame their children for their behaviour just as they were blamed as children. A never ending cycle, unless you break out, but, as you already know, in this case there's almost no chance to convince the perpetrator of his faults...
Hell often the victims themselves think "I turned out alright, can't be that harmful" - hence the cycle... Some said that even after showing them the ACE statistics. "System 1" (from Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow)/the unconscious reaction is just too powerful and tempting sometimes...
You see, if my parents didn't act intentionally, then how I am suddenly able to act differently? If they couldn't change, how can I change? If they are not responsible, how can my mom complain that my older brother yells at her regularly? He's only doing what she did for years. Yet she places the responsibility on him. So if he's responsible, she is infinitely more responsible than him, because she molded his brain. Nobody has more power than parents in this world, nobody else shapes brains. Our parents are as responsible as anyone can ever get. If parents aren't responsible, nobody can be held responsible, everyone can say, "my bad childhood made me do it."

If parents say as my mom did, "kids can piss anyone off into rage and then I can not control myself, I must yell at them and hit them", well, let's consider that. Do parents hit and yell in the public or when visitors are around or when there's a phone call? No, they don't. They control themselves perfectly in the public. From moment to moment, they hide their rage, hiss "wait till we get home!" and put on a sweet voice for complete strangers' sake. So they know they do something evil that others must not see, yet they choose to do it, because they have absolute power. If parents were paid a million dollars to be nice to children, they would. They are nice to strangers for much lesser price, they treat strangers with common human respect and politeness and then they choose to act in a corrupt and vicious way to those they should treat the best by far. HELL, if I can control myself to the point of suppressing all emotion to not invoke the wrath of my parents, then it is absolutely guaranteed that parents can control themselves.
A parent chooses to act nice when at work or at the street. They only do evil when they can get away with it. And when the child grows up, the parents start cashing in on their investment, demanding gratitude for their valuable, expensive and harmonious work of raising the child, and other emotional blackmail.

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26-02-2014, 10:14 PM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2014 10:23 PM by Vipa.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(26-02-2014 06:21 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I'm an introvert, unless there's some interesting topic around. I am topic-oriented, problem or task-oriented, not people-oriented. I AM not a person enough to know what to DO with other persons. That statement is already wrong, because hanging out is not about DOing something, it is about BEing.

You can do stuff and still be at the same time offline or with other hobbies too. For me playing games is mostly about being with someone. It's just something you both like doing and whether you talk or are just silent doesn't change much. I don't think you aren't person enough for the being part. And I don't see how others are more of a person than you are - people are fucked up, but you know that and still don't connect, don't you?
I would argue that most people have a hobby for being just as much as for doing. Like a pretext (a likeable one) to meet up.

(26-02-2014 06:21 PM)Luminon Wrote:  You see, if my parents didn't act intentionally, then how I am suddenly able to act differently? If they couldn't change, how can I change? If they are not responsible, how can my mom complain that my older brother yells at her regularly? He's only doing what she did for years. Yet she places the responsibility on him. So if he's responsible, she is infinitely more responsible than him, because she molded his brain. Nobody has more power than parents in this world, nobody else shapes brains. Our parents are as responsible as anyone can ever get. If parents aren't responsible, nobody can be held responsible, everyone can say, "my bad childhood made me do it."

A parent chooses to act nice when at work or at the street. They only do evil when they can get away with it. And when the child grows up, the parents start cashing in on their investment, demanding gratitude for their valuable, expensive and harmonious work of raising the child, and other emotional blackmail.

They have a past where they didn't learn anything else. If you accept that past experiences influence present decisions, then this behaviour may feel like a necessity to their brain. Just because society now says they aren't doing the right thing doesn't mean they don't still think it's the right thing.
Now, it certainly doesn't mean what they are doing isn't wrong and you can still judge them for their behaviour. But I don't think it helps to paint them as actually evil or something the like. I would just say, yes it is intentionality, but it's intentionality based and limited to what they know and have experienced.
Believing in a god isn't (at least) a (conscious) choice but probably only the results of what your brain has mixed as a basis, e.g. what you think you know; what you experienced. This is probably the case with this behaviour too. You don't stop believing just because society says it's stupid (you may just hide it better). It only matters what basis you yourself have. Why should this be different with other things?
Doing rituals to praise a god is intentional, but how free are you to not do them if you really really believe/feel you have to.

Imo, unfortunately to critically analyze your own behaviour And change it accordingly is an act that takes a lot more than many people have. (As stefan quotes the study: To ignore evidence contrary to your beliefs and reaffirm what you already think is correct, rewards your brain...). You are able to do it, maybe your mother isn't.
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27-02-2014, 05:21 PM (This post was last modified: 27-02-2014 05:28 PM by Luminon.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(26-02-2014 10:14 PM)Vipa Wrote:  You can do stuff and still be at the same time offline or with other hobbies too. For me playing games is mostly about being with someone. It's just something you both like doing and whether you talk or are just silent doesn't change much. I don't think you aren't person enough for the being part. And I don't see how others are more of a person than you are - people are fucked up, but you know that and still don't connect, don't you?
I would argue that most people have a hobby for being just as much as for doing. Like a pretext (a likeable one) to meet up.
I like to work together with people, something simple and boring, so there's time to talk. Work really helps while it lasts.

Would you enjoy to hang out with people if you've got a knife in the guts? If you forget the knife in the guts, you still won't enjoy hanging out with people, you just will have no idea why. But you will inevitably forget the knife in the guts, because if you don't, if you try to do something about it, you will get stabbed one more time by people. And that's the only notion of people's company you have - the knife wielders, who stab you when you act like a person, so you just don't act a person, you erase your personhood. If you want to do enjoy people's company, you have to get away from psycho stabbing murderers with knives, a.k.a. parents, realize there is such a thing as a feeling, remind yourself of the pain, find the knife, remember who stabbed you, then pull the knife away while squirming in agony and feverish delirium for a few days. Then take it easy for several months or years and spend the rest of your life acutely aware of all knives in vicinity.

Me connecting with people is difficult, because my threshold of pain is way through the roof. If I get to share what I deal with, what I have to contribute, people start looking for razors to cut themselves. All I care about are painful things or things that help to manage pain or that ultimately in the long term cure the cause of pain sooner. If the deep cause of my pain are people - or inability to hang out with them, then hanging out with them will not magically solve anything. My only hope is to enjoy the Stef therapy for several hours a day for months or years, to meditate like a slightly swaying autistic statue and contemplate things that are most painful, because it is a pain of rehabilitation. It actually makes a lot of sense.

A person in rehabilitation will trigger everyone's forgotten insecurities, vulnerability and "worthlessness" that they do not want to admit to themselves. Many would rather die, than do that. Many would rather go to war and die than renounce their abusive parents who tell them to go to the Iraq war.


(26-02-2014 10:14 PM)Vipa Wrote:  They have a past where they didn't learn anything else. If you accept that past experiences influence present decisions, then this behaviour may feel like a necessity to their brain. Just because society now says they aren't doing the right thing doesn't mean they don't still think it's the right thing.
Now, it certainly doesn't mean what they are doing isn't wrong and you can still judge them for their behaviour. But I don't think it helps to paint them as actually evil or something the like. I would just say, yes it is intentionality, but it's intentionality based and limited to what they know and have experienced.
Believing in a god isn't (at least) a (conscious) choice but probably only the results of what your brain has mixed as a basis, e.g. what you think you know; what you experienced. This is probably the case with this behaviour too. You don't stop believing just because society says it's stupid (you may just hide it better). It only matters what basis you yourself have. Why should this be different with other things?
Doing rituals to praise a god is intentional, but how free are you to not do them if you really really believe/feel you have to.

Imo, unfortunately to critically analyze your own behaviour And change it accordingly is an act that takes a lot more than many people have. (As stefan quotes the study: To ignore evidence contrary to your beliefs and reaffirm what you already think is correct, rewards your brain...). You are able to do it, maybe your mother isn't.
Yes, past experiences affect our decisions. So what? That is not an argument.
The only thing that this means is, that we need to make extra effort to be careful, polite and considerate, we must strive to improve ourselves, because there is this mind-controlling effect of our past experiences. If we have bad past experiences, we must admit that to ourselves before we have spouses and children and so on and we must invest into psychotherapy just in case there is something wrong with us. If we didn't like our upbringing, we must invest into parenting books and courses to learn how to do it right. What you say only means an extra responsibility, to make the most with the little free will we have. All must go aside, all petty chores of daily life to prevent us from committing more evil.

Because if you say that past experiences control us totally and we can't do anything about that, then you'd better call the police to lock you up, because you're clearly out of your control, in other words, insane. And if some people, like parents claim sanity yet act in an insane, dysfunctional, abusive and repetitive way, then they are mindless monsters, unable to recognize good and evil.

Parents of course control themselves perfectly. If they want to beat their children, they take them out of the public first. That is a huge dose of awareness and self-control.
My parents changed their behavior purposefully all the time. My mom resisted grandparental pressures on baptizing us or getting us totally officially Christianized. They stopped believing in a Christian God. What the hell, they were into self-development, therapies, spirituality and so on. So they were always very much about changing and improving themselves. My mom became a vegetarian and she reads many complex and demanding spiritual books that are not feely goody stuff. So there was always a great effort to do good things. Which only makes it worse that child abuse remained. It's a greater corruption and hypocrisy for that, not lesser.
If anyone could control their feelings, it was my parents, only they chose to control some feelings and not others. They chose to protect some of their feelings and strangers' feelings at the expense of destroying their children and each other.

Are there any circumstances in this world when child abuse would be a good thing? No excuse can make an evil thing into a good thing. No person, child or adult would want that happen to them, again. If we keep making excuses, then it's good - hell, then let's torture people into submission and never complain about the devastating consequences on everyone! But if it's evil, then let's stop making excuses, let's come clear and let's stop that from happening. Let's sever the relationships with evil people, because the relationships were not there to begin with, there were only evil people covering their ass from rightful consequences. Let's not cover, reward or excuse evil. Does it feel difficult? Hell, yes! But difficulty does not make things good or evil. People do difficult things all the fuckin' time.

If some ritual, custom, habit or tradition is evil, away with it! That is what makes us human. If we pride ourselves for being human, being good and making good choices, then pretending and doing evil in secret is evil. There are objective differences between me and my parents and these objective differences can be objectively called good and evil. We can't get any more objective than that. I choose to act in a consistent, objectively preferable way and they choose not to. Doing good is something that we are more than capable of and this is what we have the right to expect from others and if they don't do that, we have the right to get the hell away from them and make no excuse for them. Let's call things their true names.

The only thing that really prevents us from calling things their true names is bad conscience. Pain is bad enough, but bad conscience is worse. Once someone harmed child abuse, then they can not accept a standard of truth that would identify them as child abusers and coincidentally also put stop to child abuse. The truth is horrifying enough even for people with clear conscience, evildoers have practically no chance to turn back.

Both of my parents acknowledged that I am right about all that. But they are getting a divorce and their health and material situation is not very good either (no wonder at all, it's all their own doing), so they are choosing to know what they did without doing anything about it, while sorting out their lives. That's their choice of course. But my choice is not to talk to them unless they talk honestly. Parents are always responsible for the relationship, not children. Time will show - but if years go by without any serious attempt to contact me, well, this is not what loving people do. They know I suffer and if they had clear conscience, they'd try to help me, because they'd know it's not about them, it's not their fault, no matter what I say. On the other hand, helping me would involve probing on their part, which my mom doesn't want to do, because I found her out. So either way, the cat is out of the bag, the cat being me, the bag being my parents' pretense of morality and mature authority.

If my mom wanted to talk to me, she knows what nuggets of wisdom she'd hear - I'd tell her how her own mother talks about herself and her stuff all the time - and never cares what my mom has to say. She's not that senile to not notice - she just doesn't see her daughter as a person, but as a comforter. And that's exactly how my mother saw me all my life. *in Stef's voice* Ooooh, I'm like an evil candyman, handing out rusty needles dipped in acid, just give me call and I'll pop your precious sheltered boils and squeeze out the pus of truth Evil_monster

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28-02-2014, 09:20 AM (This post was last modified: 28-02-2014 09:33 AM by Vipa.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(27-02-2014 05:21 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Me connecting with people is difficult, because my threshold of pain is way through the roof. If I get to share what I deal with, what I have to contribute, people start looking for razors to cut themselves. All I care about are painful things or things that help to manage pain or that ultimately in the long term cure the cause of pain sooner. If the deep cause of my pain are people - or inability to hang out with them, then hanging out with them will not magically solve anything. My only hope is to enjoy the Stef therapy for several hours a day for months or years, to meditate like a slightly swaying autistic statue and contemplate things that are most painful, because it is a pain of rehabilitation. It actually makes a lot of sense.

A person in rehabilitation will trigger everyone's forgotten insecurities, vulnerability and "worthlessness" that they do not want to admit to themselves. Many would rather die, than do that. Many would rather go to war and die than renounce their abusive parents who tell them to go to the Iraq war.

Ok. So you think you would be toxic to others and others are toxic for you (like addicts are for former addicts)? Fair enough, if that's your way.
I'm lucky enough to have 0 ACEs, so that's nothing I have to deal with myself. But I certainly would support someone doing this if it really is necessary (the parent part).

Quote:Yes, past experiences affect our decisions. So what? That is not an argument.
The only thing that this means is, that we need to make extra effort to be careful, polite and considerate, we must strive to improve ourselves, because there is this mind-controlling effect of our past experiences.

This imo exactly means they aren't evil but instead this makes them either lazy or incompetent if they don't make this effort or aren't able to see this is actually bad. And that's the only argument I made and make. Only if they are able to see that it's evil (and not only that others think it's evil - your "they wait until you're home) and could change it, only then it's evil.
To seek self-improvement doesn't mean you are actually capable of understanding what you're looking for or you can still have a blind spot somewhere. As you say yourself: Most would rather join the iraq war than deal with their parents' failings. So it is very possible that people actively refuse to see what has been done to them and in return they probably won't see what they're doing to their children either - no matter what else they are able to improve. Doesn't make them evil, makes them blind/incompetent.
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01-03-2014, 06:38 AM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2014 08:35 AM by Luminon.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(28-02-2014 09:20 AM)Vipa Wrote:  Ok. So you think you would be toxic to others and others are toxic for you (like addicts are for former addicts)? Fair enough, if that's your way.
I'm lucky enough to have 0 ACEs, so that's nothing I have to deal with myself. But I certainly would support someone doing this if it really is necessary (the parent part).
Toxic to others? Hard to tell. Narcissistic mothers necessarily raise narcissistic children. Narcissistic personality must achieve perfection to get any response from the mother. So yes, I guess what I have is a narcissistic personality. That does not mean someone who loves himself or attention of others necessarily, it is a conditional love of self dependent on achieving perfection. Perfection can never be achieved for a long time, so it is like living under a Damocle's sword of perfect standard, regardless of what other people or I feel. That is a false self and other people can detect false self with great acuity. False self is one of the ugliest things, a hideous and terrifying sight. Especially in the mirror and I have seen that, my false self. It was terrible.

I guess that must irritate people a lot, enough to keep away, but not directly threatening, because it's not aimed at them.
Another thing that irritates them is, if I try to do something about it. This is when it gets personal. Many, if not all of them have the same problem and me doing something about it triggers their deepest insecurities, just like I trigger mine. They get anxious and try to manage that anxiety by giving a shallow advice and making the scary boo boo go away. If I refuse that advice, they get pissed off a lot. They overreact by my estimate, which suggests that it is their problem projected onto me, not me.
So yeah, I managed to piss off at least one classmate, possibly more. Through a brief Facebook conversation. Man, this stuff is explosive. I guess I'm more of a self-important jerk to my classmates now. But it's them pissed off, not me. I know this stuff hurts, they apparently don't, but it's their pain, I already have mine. I just want them to know, that there are such things painful and explosive thoughts, this is the stuff I deal with and this is why I'm not very positively inclined to participate in their non-program, such as hanging out in the pub.

"You think you're the hot stuff, don't you?" they must surely think. Well, I don't know about that. I do things which only 1 person in 10,000 does, perhaps less. That demands my full attention and energy. I don't have much else to spare. I see how foolish it is to expect any help or support from classmates. If I am crawling painfully with canes to rehab, they are still aching in full body cast on intensive care department, with bottles of fluid oozing into them. The fluid happens to be beer and booze. This whole world is like a fuckin' WW1 hospital - or a medieval Europe during plague. Everyone's either dead or dying and the few people who can stand on shaky legs are scattered across the continent.


(28-02-2014 09:20 AM)Vipa Wrote:  This imo exactly means they aren't evil but instead this makes them either lazy or incompetent if they don't make this effort or aren't able to see this is actually bad. And that's the only argument I made and make. Only if they are able to see that it's evil (and not only that others think it's evil - your "they wait until you're home) and could change it, only then it's evil.
To seek self-improvement doesn't mean you are actually capable of understanding what you're looking for or you can still have a blind spot somewhere. As you say yourself: Most would rather join the iraq war than deal with their parents' failings. So it is very possible that people actively refuse to see what has been done to them and in return they probably won't see what they're doing to their children either - no matter what else they are able to improve. Doesn't make them evil, makes them blind/incompetent.
The action of "wait till we get home" is not the main root of evil, the evil is attacking children. Everyone knows assaulting is bad, because they don't want to be habitually assaulted and they don't want to be known as an attacker. By hiding the assault they prove that they know

Laziness and incompetence is not evil, but corruption is. Corruption is different. People can be honest about their laziness and incompetence and thus face the consequences, letting other people make informed choices. However, corrupt people actively abuse power to sacrifice weaker people to avoid consequences of their laziness and incompetence. Corrupt people actively lie and pretend to be hard-working, competent and moral people. If people, such as abusive parents do that, I have no choice than to call them corrupt and evil.

Later, when parents lose the power of physical intimidation, they very skillfully use the power of emotional blackmail. Such parental conversations and letters are works of an evil genius, with convoluted messages to trigger our deepest insecurities and make us feel guilty and return back to the cult. Stef had deciphered a number of these in his podcasts.

I think it's important to emphasize, that none of that needs to be voiced aloud and put into precise philosophical terms. Conscious mind and language is the slowest and smallest part of us. People understand all this instinctively with all their being. If they invested everything into the power, they will acutely feel all shifts in power, security or stability and all webs of relationships and will do almost anything to those less powerful to keep that power.
Remember, people do not have to be able to recite the penal code in order to commit crimes and they do not have to be philosophers to be evil, or have a degree in psychology to feel more secure through manipulating others. This is not a fuckin' university, it's the infinitely better informed school of millions of years of evolution. People already are geniuses and philosophers in all their being. The people whom we call geniuses and philosophers are rare people who can consciously articulate what most people and reality itself already do so skillfully, that they don't even need to think about it. Intellect is a powerless tip of the iceberg on the great submerged personality of the subconscious, and the hidden, sunken iceberg of the subconscious is just a lump of ice in the great invisible ocean undercurrents of cultural evil. But still, this is no argument and no excuse. There are no oceans or icebergs, there are just people and words.

Is there any other, milder way to put this? I don't see it. Are you worried that your relationship with your parents might be threatened by this conversation? Does some of that apply on your parents and are you subconsciously trying to defend them? I certainly get that impression from you - which of course means nothing, it's just my impression. Even if so, it wouldn't be your fault at all, nor mine. Parents are responsible for the relationship. If the relationship is based on love and respect, you have nothing to fear from questioning. But I'd warn you, so far all people I have heard of, who examined honestly their relationship with parents, had this relationship blow up in their faces.
Even though I long for the old security and hanging out with my parents, I know it was a lie, an illusion, it was never real. There were strictly defined narrow topics we could talk about without danger, that was all.

So when I wonder about the family love, there is a simple test. Was I bullied? Yes, for a long time. Did I have a problem with cigarette addiction? Yes, for a long time. Did I ever feel secure to tell my parents about these things? Did I ever trust them to be helpful? Were they perceptive in any way of my suffering, as people who should know me and care for me most of all people in the world? Did they act in a thoughtful and helpful way when they got some obvious signs of my problems? Hell, never, no chance of that!!!
So here's my answer, facts speak for themselves. I never really trusted my parents, never loved them and they never really loved or respected me. I don't know what is love or respect, but sure as hell I did not like what passed for these things in my family, I already felt back then this is wrong, even though it was defined as good. I just couldn't feel it too strongly, or it would get worse.
No wonder that I don't like hanging out with people, I have no idea what is love, respect, comraderie, friendship or any other shades and degrees of relationships. My knowledge on these is unsound, I realize that. Yet I am fed up with that crap which passes for relationships in this society. I am in that deep shadow valley when I know what is wrong, but I don't know yet what is right. I know what not to do, but I don't know what to do. And that is a very deep problem, because this is something that very, very few people need to figure out. Very few people need to re-formulate relationships consciously. Hell, this is a goddamn fuckin' re-formulation and re-invention of my whole being, my whole notion of the self. It's a resurrection of a living person out of the undead vampire. OK, and the bad news now? Big Grin THIS is what laymen call adventure.

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01-03-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(01-03-2014 06:38 AM)Luminon Wrote:  So yeah, I managed to piss off at least one classmate, possibly more. Through a brief Facebook conversation. Man, this stuff is explosive. I guess I'm more of a self-important jerk to my classmates now. But it's them pissed off, not me.

Haha yeah I managed to do that too... However he thinks and defends that it's sometimes good for a kid to get spanked. As he words it: You have to make sure that your child understands, that you are doing this BECAUSE you love it and it is simply a necessity that actions have consequences... (or something alike)

There's no way I could ever agree with this statement, but I can't change his mind. It's what he believes, it's what he experienced... -> "I and my parents didn't turn out that bad"

So I will still stand by my argument that the act may be bad (or evil as you say), but the person doing it isn't necessarily.

Quote:Is there any other, milder way to put this? I don't see it. Are you worried that your relationship with your parents might be threatened by this conversation? Does some of that apply on your parents and are you subconsciously trying to defend them? I certainly get that impression from you - which of course means nothing, it's just my impression. Even if so, it wouldn't be your fault at all, nor mine. Parents are responsible for the relationship. If the relationship is based on love and respect, you have nothing to fear from questioning. But I'd warn you, so far all people I have heard of, who examined honestly their relationship with parents, had this relationship blow up in their faces.
Even though I long for the old security and hanging out with my parents, I know it was a lie, an illusion, it was never real. There were strictly defined narrow topics we could talk about without danger, that was all.

So when I wonder about the family love, there is a simple test. Was I bullied? Yes, for a long time. Did I have a problem with cigarette addiction? Yes, for a long time. Did I ever feel secure to tell my parents about these things? Did I ever trust them to be helpful? Were they perceptive in any way of my suffering, as people who should know me and care for me most of all people in the world? Did they act in a thoughtful and helpful way when they got some obvious signs of my problems? Hell, never, no chance of that!!!
So here's my answer, facts speak for themselves. I never really trusted my parents, never loved them and they never really loved or respected me. I don't know what is love or respect, but sure as hell I did not like what passed for these things in my family, I already felt back then this is wrong, even though it was defined as good.

Thankfully I think this is not the case with my relationship with my parents.
As for your test:

"There were strictly defined narrow topics we could talk about without danger, that was all."
No topic was ever taboo or presented as such. My opinion was and is always valued. (Probably even overvalued since hard objection often overruled (undemocratically) both their votes Tongue)

"So when I wonder about the family love, there is a simple test.
Was I bullied?" Never. How and why would parents even do that?

"Did I have a problem with cigarette addiction?" No addictions (not even coffeine, the only "problem" I have is overweight, but I'm killing this one currently, but food is just way too good and my dad imo cooks like a half-"god" ~.~ ...)

"Did I ever feel secure to tell my parents about these things?" Always, care first, judgement (if at all, and if, it was something like "are you sure you want to do X? I don't think it's a good idea because Y" at worst) later.

"Did I ever trust them to be helpful?" Always. I sometimes had to start conversations with: I want to talk about X, but I don't want you to do anything. Because otherwise they would act immediately... Hell they even (still to this day) helped my friends if they were in need and I told them; be it money (currently 200$/month + unforseen costs from my friends' sides like a fine or a broken PC) or a place to stay for some weeks etc...
(While I may be incompentent to ever tell them this directly: I'm fucking grateful for this, to a degree I can't put into words)

"Were they perceptive in any way of my suffering, as people who should know me and care for me most of all people in the world?" Yes

"Did they act in a thoughtful and helpful way when they got some obvious signs of my problems?" Yes.

I could actually add one to that list: Do they trust you in general?
I'd say yes. E.g. I've had full access to their credit card informations to buy stuff online since I was 12 etc.

And I certainly feel loved and respected.

So I'm quite certain that I don't subconsciously try to defend my parents when I say you don't have to be evil to do evil things ^^ You can cut contact for less than an evil personality, you don't have to vilify your familiy to still see that this is not what you need. It doesn't matter whether this is their conscious (and well informed) doing or just their incompetence.
It just feels like you radicalize your thinking too much if you only paint it black (loved the song in guitar hero! Hobo ) and white.
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