DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
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02-03-2014, 08:09 AM
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(01-03-2014 11:51 AM)Vipa Wrote:  Haha yeah I managed to do that too... However he thinks and defends that it's sometimes good for a kid to get spanked. As he words it: You have to make sure that your child understands, that you are doing this BECAUSE you love it and it is simply a necessity that actions have consequences... (or something alike)

There's no way I could ever agree with this statement, but I can't change his mind. It's what he believes, it's what he experienced... -> "I and my parents didn't turn out that bad"
If understanding is the goal, you might ask him, what if there was a way to make the child understand without violence? What if violence was a sure way of destroying any true relationship and understanding, setting way for Abu Ghraib parenting and abandonment in old age?
Would your friend then stop assaulting the child, if he was given some books on non-violent parenting for inspiration? If yes, great.
If not, he can not claim to have "turned out fine", because he is clearly a sadist.

(01-03-2014 11:51 AM)Vipa Wrote:  So I will still stand by my argument that the act may be bad (or evil as you say), but the person doing it isn't necessarily.
Sure, not necessarily. It is active continuation and defense of evil acts that corrupts people.
Nobody is perfect, but I can be fairly certain in presence of evil, if the person systematically commits evil (conditions) on 3 helpless children for a 20 years or so, despite having a plenty of opportunities to reconsider and continues to do so in full knowledge without a sign of remorse (as it turned out today). I don't see any room for ambiguity here.

If I get really philosophical, evil is essentially a form of conditioning the matter. It is an act of making the the lower, concrete, particular control the higher, universal and abstract. For example, it means inventing special rules to control and destroy people. It is misusing people's great wish to be good (an abstract concept) for very personal, specific selfish ends. I think this definition of evil is so good, that it holds universally. I intend to write a paper on it, there are other ways to put it and further ramifications...

(01-03-2014 11:51 AM)Vipa Wrote:  Was I bullied?" Never. How and why would parents even do that?
For countless reasons, notably because they may be immature, corrupt and infinitely more powerful than the child.
But I really meant bullying at school. Supposedly, when people love each other, they should somehow know if they feel bad. Let's say a wife was raped on the way home from work, the husband should notice immediately upon her arrival that something is very wrong, if he loves her. Stef says, this should work similarly if children are bullied at school. It really places a complete responsibility on the parent for the child's safety. I had no idea it's supposed to work like that., but I sure like this idea.

(01-03-2014 11:51 AM)Vipa Wrote:  And I certainly feel loved and respected.

So I'm quite certain that I don't subconsciously try to defend my parents when I say you don't have to be evil to do evil things ^^ You can cut contact for less than an evil personality, you don't have to vilify your familiy to still see that this is not what you need. It doesn't matter whether this is their conscious (and well informed) doing or just their incompetence.
It just feels like you radicalize your thinking too much if you only paint it black (loved the song in guitar hero! Hobo ) and white.
Wow, your parents seem like genuinely good people, someone you'd really like to spend time with. They probably are not a war generation. Here, practically everyone is a direct descendant of WW2 survivors, of direct warfare and labor camps and then of course a couple of generation of Communism. And it shows. Whole central Europe is full of damaged people, who worship damage.

No, I don't vilify my parents. I have been robbed blind by them and I have to count loses. I need to know what was stolen from me, what abilities to act, to feel, to have relationships, to communicate, to defend myself. This act of inventorying must be done consciously, so I know what to mourn and where to work on growing back the abilities of my true self again, instead of perfecting the narcissistic compensatory skills of the false self.

Also, I am trying to get myself rid of the mechanisms that my parents left for their convenience, to control me. They left a plenty of viruses and trojan horses, buttons that they can conveniently use to make me self-attack, feel guilt, get afraid, doubt myself, hate myself, procrastinate and do a plenty of compensatory dysfunctional things because of these hidden viruses.
I must renew my emotional immune system. For example, my mom installed in me mechanisms that prevent me from saying things that might prove her unjust. I must de-normalize all that is truly bad for me, I must distinguish between what feels right to my mom and what feels right for me. And every time I do that, I experience a healthy immune reaction - an inflammation, an allergic reaction at the foreign virus, a healthy dose of anger to destroy the dysfunctional mechanisms, never succumb to them again and never tolerate attempts of my mom to install them back. Thanks to these mechanisms she built in, my mom is as dangerous to me as a pimp and drug dealer is to a poor young prostitute. I must realize that deeply and never slip back into the old habits.
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02-03-2014, 10:57 AM
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(02-03-2014 08:09 AM)Luminon Wrote:  If understanding is the goal, you might ask him, what if there was a way to make the child understand without violence? What if violence was a sure way of destroying any true relationship and understanding, setting way for Abu Ghraib parenting and abandonment in old age?
Would your friend then stop assaulting the child, if he was given some books on non-violent parenting for inspiration? If yes, great.
If not, he can not claim to have "turned out fine", because he is clearly a sadist.

He's also a fundamentalist christian, so I'm fairly certain this wouldn't sway him unfortunately (because, while the secular reasons may still be valid in his eyes, it's also what the bible says according to his beliefs). He's a good guy and friend, but our frontlines on this topic are Deep - had some pretty heated discussions about it. While he accepts that his beliefs are ultimately only grounded in faith and personal experience, as soon as it's about parenting there's no ground to win.

Quote:I intend to write a paper on it, there are other ways to put it and further ramifications...
looking forward to that ^^

Quote:They probably are not a war generation. Here, practically everyone is a direct descendant of WW2 survivors, of direct warfare and labor camps and then of course a couple of generation of Communism. And it shows. Whole central Europe is full of damaged people, who worship damage.

Ah I see, yes. While my parents were born in the 40s, switzerland never had a war since 160 years and counting... So your assumption is more or less correct. But sadly that doesn't change the fact that spanking (while actually under penalty) is still widespread, especially in conservative homes. And my friend (from above) can look back on a long tradition in his parents' generation... Probably up to 10-20 years ago...
I count myself lucky since I'm now the 2nd/3rd generation without physical abuse in our family...

But overall mental abuse is still very common in western europe too...


Quote:I must renew my emotional immune system. For example, my mom installed in me mechanisms that prevent me from saying things that might prove her unjust. I must de-normalize all that is truly bad for me, I must distinguish between what feels right to my mom and what feels right for me. And every time I do that, I experience a healthy immune reaction - an inflammation, an allergic reaction at the foreign virus, a healthy dose of anger to destroy the dysfunctional mechanisms, never succumb to them again and never tolerate attempts of my mom to install them back. Thanks to these mechanisms she built in, my mom is as dangerous to me as a pimp and drug dealer is to a poor young prostitute. I must realize that deeply and never slip back into the old habits.

nice analogies Big Grin I always told them if I thought what they were doing was wrong or stupid and it was never taken as a threat for their integrity or whatever (imo it takes a sad creature to feel threatened by or to feel the need to discipline (abuse) an innocent child...)
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06-03-2014, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2014 09:43 AM by Luminon.)
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
This song is just.... incredible. It hits the spot right on. It is imprecise in one thing - my mom is a vegetarian, unless I don't count that she eats people's brains and turns them into her copies like zombie infection... Anyway I love the time when I ride the wave and information comes to me randomly that is meaningful to my development.





(02-03-2014 10:57 AM)Vipa Wrote:  He's also a fundamentalist christian, so I'm fairly certain this wouldn't sway him unfortunately (because, while the secular reasons may still be valid in his eyes, it's also what the bible says according to his beliefs). He's a good guy and friend, but our frontlines on this topic are Deep - had some pretty heated discussions about it. While he accepts that his beliefs are ultimately only grounded in faith and personal experience, as soon as it's about parenting there's no ground to win.
You might try talking like in Real Time Relationships. Talk about how that makes you feel - imagine you're a child and then there is this huge terrifying person who beats you up for no reason but because you're stronger - and are you supposed to love him? If you don't love him, he beats you up even more, what kind of relationship is that? That is a soul-twisting mindfuck, a perversion of love into submission and fear of a primary care-giver, something so wrong that it can not be faced, but ever suppressed and validated by beating up another helpless child in another generation.
Essentially, this person needs to remember what his upbringing was like.

At the same time, The bomb in the brain series gives lots of resources to prove that violence on children, both verbal and physical is like feeding them poison. Besides that, it also makes parenting much, much more difficult. I don't know about you, but I was 20 years old and my mom still had to lose nerves about housekeeping chores.

I know that is much to ask... Not that I have (m)any friends, but this is how I think at this moment, kill the friendship, save the baby?

(02-03-2014 10:57 AM)Vipa Wrote:  looking forward to that ^^
Oh, I have a Czech draft but I should probably have started in English, so I can get feedback Wink
Anyway this kind of worldview I have now is beautiful. It feels like I have dissolved away artificial distinctions that kept me from understanding reality. There is fundamentally no difference between electrical circuits in our brain and exchange of electrical potential between planets in our solar system. The nature of the energy is the same. In order for the energy to flow, there must be at least three elements to close a 2D circuit triangle - the name of a concept (a couple of neurons in brain), the idea or image of a thing (some neurons again) and then a third thing, the perceived thing itself (or rather its sensory memory) that is real and which completes the circuit.

But it's difficult to talk about this, because everything logically necessitates everything else, and so some thoughts make no sense unless you learn others and then I must repeat and derive new conclusions...


(02-03-2014 10:57 AM)Vipa Wrote:  nice analogies Big Grin I always told them if I thought what they were doing was wrong or stupid and it was never taken as a threat for their integrity or whatever (imo it takes a sad creature to feel threatened by or to feel the need to discipline (abuse) an innocent child...)
One of the worst things about moral violence is, that parents get to decide who is guilty and who is innocent, so that even the child believes it completely. But as Alice Miller writes, such mothers were often used as workers when they were children and they learned to see any kind of responsibility as a great burden, especially motherhood, that is, caring or children that were younger siblings back then. These feelings get triggered by motherhood. When other people's desires are orders for us, we become resentful towards others and they better not have any wishes or problems at all. A child will pick it up very acutely, subconsciously and become a not-child. More like little adult.

Well, it's strange. My mom is so hypocrital and bigoted that it's mind-boggling. She called to ask if I'm still angry about her and to solve some stuff. I managed to fend her off, I disproved that I'd be crazy or languishing in repetitive depression, but I was unable to break through her defenses also. Quite a standstill, actually.

But now I got a nice idea. I should actually ask her, what does she expect from me. She clearly wants something - but I refuse to just go along and act as always. I'll tell her that since I don't feel anything to her, I have no idea what she wants and she must tell me. She must also explain to me, why. Because we have a relationship? If we really had a relationship, I'd know when to call her and what to talk about. And I clearly don't.

If I feel strong, I might drive home some points - my mom did make an argument that we are supposed to obey our mothers and our elders. But I would say that her relationship with my grandma is not good by any means. It's empty. If my mom says that after 20 years or so she came to an understanding of how her mother's beating was necessary - so why isn't she cordial with her? And how can she expect from me anything else but getting the hell away from her for 20 years until I "come to my senses" and gain a mature look at child beating as she supposedly did? Am I supposed to return after 20 years and humor her senile self talking about unimportant things, as she does with her mother, and then complain behind her back about the unimportant things she talks about?

Now that I think about that, my mom used the word "wallow" in emotions often, as a description for what I do. It's hard to translate, but she said it in an even more infantilized, contemptuous way. This is how she thinks, she has contempt for my feelings and therefore contempt for me, contempt for infantility, for childhood and children in general. Therefore she must feel contempt for herself as a child. And this is what she taught me, I never liked my "childhood" drawings or stories which I produced copiously, never liked my old photos, never liked the "young, primitive, less perfect me". The contempt for the weaker and stupider that we once were and that we still are deep down inside, because we are never allowed to accept it, thus let it grow and outgrow. Holy shit. And from contempt there is just a step to condescension. My god, how I was allergic to condescension. I still am. Yeah, I forget myself sometimes, do something reflexive or stupid, but that does not mean I am stupid. We were all stupid once, as children. Only those who were exposed to contempt inwardly feel stupid and must act in a condescending way - or be rather defensive-offensive.
My god, I don't want to be ever in such a situation again. Ever be in power of someone condescending. It was bad then just as it is bad today - or worse. Contempt to a child is so much worse than to an adult, because I was not allowed any defense - or self-expression or the right to be offended. Not even in my own mind. What a terrible mindfuck.
Stupidity is mine, stupidity is good. Without it, there is no growth. Nobody starts perfect, nobody gets things right the first time. If we are shamed for weakness and failure, we stop trying, stop getting better. Only weak, cruel and contemptuous people feel so insecure that they need to stop others from growing.
That's where narcissism or perfectionism comes from. Get it right always first time, or never.


Well, one positive thing to say, looks like my pain excavations took effect. Things always proceed in triangles. Now that I changed my thinking some more, looks like the laya yoga part took up again. Looks to me as if two of the three main body circuits are free and clear, the left and middle one. Fires of the body flashing under my skin... interesting feeling. But the right circuit is a peculiar one. It takes a lot of energy to push through every time, there's still a big block next to solar plexus that was literally impenetrable before I started with the whole de-FOOing business. This kind of block is formed out of traumatic experiences - and I need to find the right one that will resonate with it and dissolve it.
I know you don't believe in this kind of stuff, but I have science to back it up - or at least that such a thing is possible. It's just another electric network in the body besides the nerve system, formed in the conductive tissue itself. It's connected to all organs but especially major endocrine glands. The solar plexus area is connected to adrenal glands, so it's a block in releasing aggression, most likely. But this needs time, I will as always stay on lookout for the right kind of experience or opportunity. It might come seemingly randomly through internet, literature, movies, someone's words, Stef's podcast (a major source), some event at school - or I will create such an experience, consciously or not, to mirror this experience and dissolve the block. Meanwhile I'll soften it up with copious amounts of energy in meditation. It may seem a slow process to you, but if I wasn't sensitive to these subtle electric circuits in the body, it would be all much slower, I can feel what works and what doesn't.

This cheesy and untrustworthy website has some half-truths on this process. The symptoms are wildly exaggerated, means they overdo this kundalini process, which is in its nature extremely dangerous and harmful if done willfully, which they clearly do. Amateurs. I burned my ass just once a little, but they're clearly burning themselves alive, so much that their hair are falling out and organs are going haywire. Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess, according to ignorant websites.
http://deniselefay.wordpress.com/2011/08...-symptoms/
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08-03-2014, 03:30 AM
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(06-03-2014 05:07 PM)Luminon Wrote:  This song is just.... incredible. It hits the spot right on. It is imprecise in one thing - my mom is a vegetarian, unless I don't count that she eats people's brains and turns them into her copies like zombie infection... Anyway I love the time when I ride the wave and information comes to me randomly that is meaningful to my development.

Yeah it's good.

Quote:Essentially, this person needs to remember what his upbringing was like.

He does... which is why he thinks it's ok, since he's ok -.-

Quote:I know that is much to ask... Not that I have (m)any friends, but this is how I think at this moment, kill the friendship, save the baby?

It wouldn't save anything and as long as there's no child this is just another topic to disagree on.

Quote:my mom did make an argument that we are supposed to obey our mothers and our elders.

What's her reasoning behind this?

Quote:I know you don't believe in this kind of stuff, but I have science to back it up - or at least that such a thing is possible. It's just another electric network in the body besides the nerve system, formed in the conductive tissue itself. It's connected to all organs but especially major endocrine glands. The solar plexus area is connected to adrenal glands, so it's a block in releasing aggression, most likely. But this needs time, I will as always stay on lookout for the right kind of experience or opportunity. It might come seemingly randomly through internet, literature, movies, someone's words, Stef's podcast (a major source), some event at school - or I will create such an experience, consciously or not, to mirror this experience and dissolve the block. Meanwhile I'll soften it up with copious amounts of energy in meditation. It may seem a slow process to you, but if I wasn't sensitive to these subtle electric circuits in the body, it would be all much slower, I can feel what works and what doesn't.

This cheesy and untrustworthy website has some half-truths on this process. The symptoms are wildly exaggerated, means they overdo this kundalini process, which is in its nature extremely dangerous and harmful if done willfully, which they clearly do. Amateurs. I burned my ass just once a little, but they're clearly burning themselves alive, so much that their hair are falling out and organs are going haywire. Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess, according to ignorant websites.
http://deniselefay.wordpress.com/2011/08...-symptoms/

Well I will agree that meditation is a good thing, but the rest, who knows. I'm less inclined to call bullshit if things are (almost) free of charge. If it's free then there's no actual harm done even if it's bullshit (and it also means that the "inventor" is likely serious, because he has not much to gain, at least as long as there's no cult-like behavior involved).
However I grew up with these spiritual things (I wasn't involved myself, because I didn't want to and my parents would never force nor try to convince me) and I can savely say I haven't seen any effect whatsoever that goes beyond normal meditation ever, even my father has recently fallen into almost total disbelieve and he went along with it for over 30-40 years. But if it helps you with your internal restructuring I guess it's a good thing, although I'm fairly certain that it has nothing to do with special energies and everything with your own brain and self reflection ^^

"Alchemical firestorm", "higher dimensional Light energies are repeatedly released in Waves of Light", "quantum", evolution has a specific final form in mind for us... And also the symptons the website lists are just things that occur anyway.
So yes, these things I don't believe.
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08-03-2014, 04:47 PM
RE: DeFOOing. Confronting mom and dad, the gods of family religion.
(08-03-2014 03:30 AM)Vipa Wrote:  It wouldn't save anything and as long as there's no child this is just another topic to disagree on.
Glad to see that.

(08-03-2014 03:30 AM)Vipa Wrote:  What's her reasoning behind this?
I don't know, I don't think there is any. No reasoning, but a lot of parental mythology, propaganda and fear. As my mom and all mothers of the history before her saw it, child is not a person, it's a property, an investment. The things we invest into children, they are supposed to pay us back - or so it was before invention of the welfare state.
As objective philosophy sees it, we are not voluntarily in our relationship with parents, we have no chance to appeal, to divorce them, to live independently, no voice in the society. So whatever parents do or don't do, they do it at our mercy. When you are locked up in a concentration camp, if the guards are nice to you sometimes and bring you food, that doesn't mean you owe them. If there's no freedom, no choice, there is no obligation. Everything good or bad is fully parental responsibility.

As I said, my mom does not behave like that herself at all, but this is what she was brought up to believe - do as I say, not as I do. You do what's good for me, not for you. Hypocrisy.
This hypocrisy is veiled by superficial bad arguments, like "there were good times too" or "your upbringing was difficult and expensive". Firstly, bad times can destroy good times, just like a spoon of poison can spoil a pot of soup. Once someone beats you up and does not change, the relationship is impossible to recover. If mafia boss is your neighbor and you owe him, he needs to beat you up just once and he will never be just an ordinary neighbor anymore, no matter how nice he acts.

Secondly, the expenses of parenthood are like expenses of charity. You can't expect to get them back, it's not a trade. There is no contract with child on the working hours of a parent and prices on equipment. The parent has an absolute power, he can make the child subscribe anything, which means nothing. No obligation, same situation as locked up in a concentration camp.
If the parenting was done right, the relationship will be good - the child will gladly call by phone, pay visits, hang out, do whatever we do with our true friends. If you ever see true friends, they're on the phone or texting all the time. But if there is physical and verbal violence, the relationship is truly dead, even if it formally lasts. With parent and child, the relationship usually dies around 4 years, when the first beating starts. Often sooner, if the infant is neglected or the parent is a crazy fucking sadist who beats up infants around 2 years or so. Violence alters neurology and kills the personality. Whatever grows on top of that to maintain the illusion of a relationship to survive and prevent more violence, is a complete facade, a scar tissue.

I am a succession of dead children and young men, murdered again and again, each time they tried to grow up. They do not exist anymore, they can not be recovered. I have to realize that, so I don't try to build on false, dead identities, so I know where to start anew.


(08-03-2014 03:30 AM)Vipa Wrote:  Well I will agree that meditation is a good thing, but the rest, who knows. I'm less inclined to call bullshit if things are (almost) free of charge. If it's free then there's no actual harm done even if it's bullshit (and it also means that the "inventor" is likely serious, because he has not much to gain, at least as long as there's no cult-like behavior involved).
Free of charge? You mean like money? This is an ancient, natural thing, found in many cultures. It's nothing that can be bought.
However, there is harm done. Messing up with body electricity is dangerous and there are paid courses that promise miraculous results for tampering practices, such as breathing exercises. Most people just waste their money on that, because they are ignorant led by greedy and delusional ignorants. But with someone is less than inept at this tampering, but still greedy and delusional, there can be nerve damage, neuroses, insanity, possibly death.

(08-03-2014 03:30 AM)Vipa Wrote:  However I grew up with these spiritual things (I wasn't involved myself, because I didn't want to and my parents would never force nor try to convince me) and I can savely say I haven't seen any effect whatsoever that goes beyond normal meditation ever, even my father has recently fallen into almost total disbelieve and he went along with it for over 30-40 years. But if it helps you with your internal restructuring I guess it's a good thing, although I'm fairly certain that it has nothing to do with special energies and everything with your own brain and self reflection ^^

"Alchemical firestorm", "higher dimensional Light energies are repeatedly released in Waves of Light", "quantum", evolution has a specific final form in mind for us... And also the symptons the website lists are just things that occur anyway.
So yes, these things I don't believe.
The poetic description fits to how the experience subjectively feels. "Alchemical firestorm" indeed. Me, I would compare it to a form of semi-pleasant slow electrocution, because that's closer physically to what it is.
Every single thing I feel is described in detail in documents like Chinese meridian charts and Patanjali's Yoga sutras. Whatever I do, it's been done before and it's not random.
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