Dealing with creationists....
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14-04-2016, 02:23 PM
Dealing with creationists....
I was thinking about creationism lately....and even theistic evolution..... and watched some videos about it.....and a few months ago I even watched-expelled-no intelligence allowed. But now as an atheist and secular humanist....I believe in evolution....but theisys keep gaslighting me. What should I do?
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14-04-2016, 02:27 PM
RE: Dealing with creationists....
Accept that you aren't going to be able to get through to them. They don't believe in creationism for logical or rational or scientific reasons (nor disbelieve in evolution for logical or rational or scientific reasons), so what logic or rational or scientific view could you offer them that would change their mind?

Even worse than that is the fact that they probably believe that they are being logical/rational/scientific. And that makes the conversation even worse because if you were going to show them evolution is real, you'd have to actually start off by educating them about what science is and is NOT.

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14-04-2016, 02:27 PM
RE: Dealing with creationists....
(14-04-2016 02:23 PM)jason197754 Wrote:  I was thinking about creationism lately....and even theistic evolution..... and watched some videos about it.....and a few months ago I even watched-expelled-no intelligence allowed. But now as an atheist and secular humanist....I believe in evolution....but theisys keep gaslighting me. What should I do?

There is no believing in evolution, you accept it or not.

For starter I would recommend Jerry Coyne Why Evolution is True.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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19-04-2016, 01:14 PM
RE: Dealing with creationists....
Yeah don't fall into the fallacy that Evolution is a belief.

It's a method.

If a better method came forward that would turn evolution on it's head. We would start using that. But as to date, no method has become evident, or proven itself with the accuracy that the evolution has.

A belief is trusting something is true without any evidence.

Evolution has evidence. Piles of it. From fossil records, genealogy, to medicine.

If one creationist could show our bodies where made out of clay, or that we didn't share 98% of our genes with chimps then would have something to go with.

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20-04-2016, 01:20 AM
RE: Dealing with creationists....
(14-04-2016 02:23 PM)jason197754 Wrote:  I was thinking about creationism lately....and even theistic evolution..... and watched some videos about it.....and a few months ago I even watched-expelled-no intelligence allowed. But now as an atheist and secular humanist....I believe in evolution....but theisys keep gaslighting me. What should I do?

Ask them for evidence. Every time I've asked for evidence creationists have come up with zilch, nada, nothing.

They of course try to turn things around by asking for the evidence for evolution...........and you can spend long, long hours providing them with this because there is of course so much of it. And they in turn will either use fallacious arguments or distorted versions of science (pseudoscience) to pretend that the evidence is false.

At the end of the day you're wasting your time on such idiots because they'll never be persuaded by the vast swathes of incontrovertible empirical evidence from diverse disciplines.

So when they make a claim. Don't make a counter-claim.

Ask for evidence.

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike
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20-04-2016, 02:00 AM
RE: Dealing with creationists....
(14-04-2016 02:23 PM)jason197754 Wrote:  I was thinking about creationism lately....and even theistic evolution..... and watched some videos about it.....and a few months ago I even watched-expelled-no intelligence allowed. But now as an atheist and secular humanist....I believe in evolution....but theisys keep gaslighting me. What should I do?

One misconception that we atheists commonly make is that we view creationism as a stand-alone theory. To a christian, it isn't. It's part of the christian belief system. That christian belief system is also a part of something much bigger. It is part of a belief that binds together a group of people. Within that group, they find friendship, support, a feeling of well-being, meaning and even love.

When discussing creationism with a theist, you assume that you are discussing the one topic whereas, for them, you are attempting to demolish a multi-faceted subject. This is why it is so difficult to get a christian to accept that creationism is false. In order for them to believe in evolution and abandon their creationist ideas, you also need to get them to abandon the group that they are a part of. This is why they fight tooth and nail to hang on to their belief in creationism because, for them, it's about so much more.

Besides, you are attempting to demolish an emotional concept using logic. Good luck with that.

Also, if god doesn't exist, then this Universe that we occupy must have come from nothing. Big Bang explains how an embryonic Universe developed into the one we observe today. What it doesn't explain is where the matter that constitutes the Universe came from. Currently, there are theories which scientists are working on but, thus far, that's all there is. Asking a christian to believe that the Universe came from nothing and without apparent cause is an ask too far based upon my interaction with them. They think it utterly preposterous and prefer to believe that their resident sky wizard did it. Apparently, to them. a sky wizard isn't preposterous at all. *sigh*

In addition, research shows that those of a religious persuasion aren't the brightest crayons in the box. If they were, they wouldn't believe in the nonsense that they do. For the most part, they'll attempt to drag you down to their level and beat you on experience at arguing at their level.

Some of them will see the light and come over to our side but they are few and far between. The rest will remain.

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20-04-2016, 04:17 AM
RE: Dealing with creationists....
(20-04-2016 02:00 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(14-04-2016 02:23 PM)jason197754 Wrote:  I was thinking about creationism lately....and even theistic evolution..... and watched some videos about it.....and a few months ago I even watched-expelled-no intelligence allowed. But now as an atheist and secular humanist....I believe in evolution....but theisys keep gaslighting me. What should I do?

One misconception that we atheists commonly make is that we view creationism as a stand-alone theory. To a christian, it isn't. It's part of the christian belief system. That christian belief system is also a part of something much bigger. It is part of a belief that binds together a group of people. Within that group, they find friendship, support, a feeling of well-being, meaning and even love.

When discussing creationism with a theist, you assume that you are discussing the one topic whereas, for them, you are attempting to demolish a multi-faceted subject. This is why it is so difficult to get a christian to accept that creationism is false. In order for them to believe in evolution and abandon their creationist ideas, you also need to get them to abandon the group that they are a part of. This is why they fight tooth and nail to hang on to their belief in creationism because, for them, it's about so much more.

Besides, you are attempting to demolish an emotional concept using logic. Good luck with that.

Also, if god doesn't exist, then this Universe that we occupy must have come from nothing. Big Bang explains how an embryonic Universe developed into the one we observe today. What it doesn't explain is where the matter that constitutes the Universe came from. Currently, there are theories which scientists are working on but, thus far, that's all there is. Asking a christian to believe that the Universe came from nothing and without apparent cause is an ask too far based upon my interaction with them. They think it utterly preposterous and prefer to believe that their resident sky wizard did it. Apparently, to them. a sky wizard isn't preposterous at all. *sigh*

In addition, research shows that those of a religious persuasion aren't the brightest crayons in the box. If they were, they wouldn't believe in the nonsense that they do. For the most part, they'll attempt to drag you down to their level and beat you on experience at arguing at their level.

Some of them will see the light and come over to our side but they are few and far between. The rest will remain.

While your point has much validity you are conflating creationism with christianity. Many christians are quite happy to accept evolutionary biology..........indeed the Roman Catholic Church has stated that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution. There are of course many protestant denominations that are also quite comfortable with evolution. Mind you how they manage to square the logic of believing in an invisible sky fairy on the one hand with acceptance of empirical evidence on the other is beyond me.

But the fact remains that many.....indeed arguably most.... christians do accept evolution.

Creationism appears to hold sway in a relatively small number of protestant evangelical groups who are at their most vocal and well-organised in the USA.

So not only are creationists in a tiny minority when they reject evolution, they're in an even tinier minority in their version of christianity.

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike
Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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20-04-2016, 05:41 AM
RE: Dealing with creationists....
(20-04-2016 04:17 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  
(20-04-2016 02:00 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  One misconception that we atheists commonly make is that we view creationism as a stand-alone theory. To a christian, it isn't. It's part of the christian belief system. That christian belief system is also a part of something much bigger. It is part of a belief that binds together a group of people. Within that group, they find friendship, support, a feeling of well-being, meaning and even love.

When discussing creationism with a theist, you assume that you are discussing the one topic whereas, for them, you are attempting to demolish a multi-faceted subject. This is why it is so difficult to get a christian to accept that creationism is false. In order for them to believe in evolution and abandon their creationist ideas, you also need to get them to abandon the group that they are a part of. This is why they fight tooth and nail to hang on to their belief in creationism because, for them, it's about so much more.

Besides, you are attempting to demolish an emotional concept using logic. Good luck with that.

Also, if god doesn't exist, then this Universe that we occupy must have come from nothing. Big Bang explains how an embryonic Universe developed into the one we observe today. What it doesn't explain is where the matter that constitutes the Universe came from. Currently, there are theories which scientists are working on but, thus far, that's all there is. Asking a christian to believe that the Universe came from nothing and without apparent cause is an ask too far based upon my interaction with them. They think it utterly preposterous and prefer to believe that their resident sky wizard did it. Apparently, to them. a sky wizard isn't preposterous at all. *sigh*

In addition, research shows that those of a religious persuasion aren't the brightest crayons in the box. If they were, they wouldn't believe in the nonsense that they do. For the most part, they'll attempt to drag you down to their level and beat you on experience at arguing at their level.

Some of them will see the light and come over to our side but they are few and far between. The rest will remain.

While your point has much validity you are conflating creationism with christianity. Many christians are quite happy to accept evolutionary biology..........indeed the Roman Catholic Church has stated that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution. There are of course many protestant denominations that are also quite comfortable with evolution. Mind you how they manage to square the logic of believing in an invisible sky fairy on the one hand with acceptance of empirical evidence on the other is beyond me.

But the fact remains that many.....indeed arguably most.... christians do accept evolution.

Creationism appears to hold sway in a relatively small number of protestant evangelical groups who are at their most vocal and well-organised in the USA.

So not only are creationists in a tiny minority when they reject evolution, they're in an even tinier minority in their version of christianity.

My creation comments were not aimed at christians as a whole. They were specifically aimed at those who also believe in creationism.

My non-creation comments were aimed at christians as a whole. christianity isn't just about a belief system. It's also about the social interaction with a group of like-minded beings. So, when attempting to destroy their beliefs, it is taken by them that their social structure is under threat too.

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20-04-2016, 05:44 AM
RE: Dealing with creationists....
(20-04-2016 04:17 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  While your point has much validity you are conflating creationism with christianity. Many christians are quite happy to accept evolutionary biology..........indeed the Roman Catholic Church has stated that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution.

Church want to eat cake and have cake. It claim no conflict but still fall on old god did it trick as evidenced by pope Francis speech:

[God] created beings and allowed them to develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one, so that they were able to develop and to arrive and their fullness of being. He gave autonomy to the beings of the universe at the same time at which he assured them of his continuous presence, giving being to every reality. And so creation continued for centuries and centuries, millennia and millennia, until it became which we know today, precisely because God is not a demiurge or a magician, but the creator who gives being to all things... The Big Bang, which nowadays is posited as the origin of the world, does not contradict the divine act of creating, but rather requires it. The evolution of nature does not contrast with the notion of creation, as evolution presupposes the creation of beings that evolve.

Also pope could say one thing but believers could easily "interpret" his words to their liking. It's not like they don't have experience in such.

(20-04-2016 04:17 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  So not only are creationists in a tiny minority when they reject evolution, they're in an even tinier minority in their version of christianity.

In Poland about 30% of believers think that creationism is true, or at least that things looked in 2006. There is some info from 2012 that states that only 37% of Poles accept evolution but I don't know how reliable it is. So creationists may be minority but not a tiny one.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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20-04-2016, 06:41 AM
RE: Dealing with creationists....
(20-04-2016 05:44 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(20-04-2016 04:17 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  While your point has much validity you are conflating creationism with christianity. Many christians are quite happy to accept evolutionary biology..........indeed the Roman Catholic Church has stated that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution.

Church want to eat cake and have cake. It claim no conflict but still fall on old god did it trick as evidenced by pope Francis speech:

[God] created beings and allowed them to develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one, so that they were able to develop and to arrive and their fullness of being. He gave autonomy to the beings of the universe at the same time at which he assured them of his continuous presence, giving being to every reality. And so creation continued for centuries and centuries, millennia and millennia, until it became which we know today, precisely because God is not a demiurge or a magician, but the creator who gives being to all things... The Big Bang, which nowadays is posited as the origin of the world, does not contradict the divine act of creating, but rather requires it. The evolution of nature does not contrast with the notion of creation, as evolution presupposes the creation of beings that evolve.

Also pope could say one thing but believers could easily "interpret" his words to their liking. It's not like they don't have experience in such.

(20-04-2016 04:17 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  So not only are creationists in a tiny minority when they reject evolution, they're in an even tinier minority in their version of christianity.

In Poland about 30% of believers think that creationism is true, or at least that things looked in 2006. There is some info from 2012 that states that only 37% of Poles accept evolution but I don't know how reliable it is. So creationists may be minority but not a tiny one.

I stand corrected. Obviously Poles are not adhering to the teachings of the catholic church as strongly as I thought!! Undecided

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Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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