Dear Islam(the religion)
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22-09-2012, 09:59 AM
RE: Dear Islam(the religion)
(22-09-2012 07:05 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I deliberately did not mention Singapore, for that reason. Religion here is about tradition not worship and is respected (by law) as such.
Meh!

I respect no religion.

(22-09-2012 08:19 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(22-09-2012 04:00 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Less than 15% of Singapore's population is Muslim. I would hardly call that an Islamic state. Again, go to a country where Islam is the primary religion.

Indonesia and Singapore are different countries bro.

My bad, I was thinking Singapore because I was chatting with one of my Chinese homies at the time.

I would hardly use Indonesia as a model for Islamic peace. There is Islamic-produced violence there too. Less than a half year ago three Christian churches were burnt down my Muslims.

Because you experience politeness from some Muslims does not speak for the majority. It also depends on what province you are in within Indonesia. Over half of them are currently in the process of enabling Shari'a Law. Anti-infidel violence has escalated since 2005. If I lived there, I'd get the fuck out.

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22-09-2012, 10:23 AM
RE: Dear Islam(the religion)
(22-09-2012 09:59 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(22-09-2012 07:05 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I deliberately did not mention Singapore, for that reason. Religion here is about tradition not worship and is respected (by law) as such.
Meh!

I respect no religion.

Ditto but that's not my point... do you respect other people's traditions?
And no, I'm not talking about sacrificing goats under your nose, I'm just talking about "way of living".

(22-09-2012 09:59 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I would hardly use Indonesia as a model for Islamic peace. There is Islamic-produced violence there too.
Nor would I.

(22-09-2012 09:59 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Because you experience politeness from some Muslims does not speak for the majority.

And here we differ. Extremists are a minority.

Trade, communication, the internet, consumerism are having their effect. Wealth and education are killing the religious side of the culture as is happening to christianity in the West.

The fundies are nervous and are getting more vocal (same, again, in both cultures). Fuck, even the Church of England (hardly fundies) are getting worried.

Brutal acts against muslims by christians are discussed in the same way that you are seeing reporting of the reverse.
And as ever, the majority reaction is like a herd of zebra who has just witnessed one of their own get munched by lions ... "What happened?!? That's outrageous! I'm still alive... move along".

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22-09-2012, 10:59 AM
RE: Dear Islam(the religion)
(22-09-2012 10:23 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-09-2012 09:59 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I respect no religion.

Ditto but that's not my point... do you respect other people's traditions?
And no, I'm not talking about sacrificing goats under your nose, I'm just talking about "way of living".

(22-09-2012 09:59 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I would hardly use Indonesia as a model for Islamic peace. There is Islamic-produced violence there too.
Nor would I.

(22-09-2012 09:59 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Because you experience politeness from some Muslims does not speak for the majority.

And here we differ. Extremists are a minority.

Trade, communication, the internet, consumerism are having their effect. Wealth and education are killing the religious side of the culture as is happening to christianity in the West.

The fundies are nervous and are getting more vocal (same, again, in both cultures). Fuck, even the Church of England (hardly fundies) are getting worried.

Brutal acts against muslims by christians are discussed in the same way that you are seeing reporting of the reverse.
And as ever, the majority reaction is like a herd of zebra who has just witnessed one of their own get munched by lions ... "What happened?!? That's outrageous! I'm still alive... move along".

We all know there are fundies in every religion that do insane things. That point has been made, debated, and discussed ad nauseum. I'd like to move on.

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22-09-2012, 11:15 AM
RE: Dear Islam(the religion)
All bad ideas can, and probably should, be mocked, criticized, refuted.

Regardless of the religion, the moderates believe some version of their religion that is not fundamentalist. That is, they don't actually believe their religion, just their own version of it. One can argue that fundamentalists believe their version of it, too, but what they believe is more of what was written in their holy books than moderates do.

Useful criticism of these beliefs should make moderates distance themselves from fundamentalists, and should ultimately divorce them even from moderate beliefs. We haven't yet found those arguments, but we're working on it.

The root of fundamentalist beliefs is the fundamentals of the religion. Get rid of those awful ideas and the fundamentals are no longer threatening.

The problem is the ugly religious doctrines at the core of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-09-2012, 11:34 AM
RE: Dear Islam(the religion)
(22-09-2012 11:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  Useful criticism of these beliefs should make moderates distance themselves from fundamentalists, and should ultimately divorce them even from moderate beliefs. We haven't yet found those arguments, but we're working on it.

The root of fundamentalist beliefs is the fundamentals of the religion. Get rid of those awful ideas and the fundamentals are no longer threatening.

The problem is the ugly religious doctrines at the core of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.
All you have to do is knock down the core beliefs of these religions. That makes both the beliefs of moderates, as well as those of fundamentalists baseless.

For example, at 1 Corinthians 15:14, the bible says that "[...] if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

Consequently, you demand evidence for the resurrection. If the believers are unable to provide you with anything but the bible as a source, which has been proven to be unreliable, there is no reason they should continue believing.

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22-09-2012, 12:02 PM
RE: Dear Islam(the religion)
(22-09-2012 11:34 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(22-09-2012 11:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  Useful criticism of these beliefs should make moderates distance themselves from fundamentalists, and should ultimately divorce them even from moderate beliefs. We haven't yet found those arguments, but we're working on it.

The root of fundamentalist beliefs is the fundamentals of the religion. Get rid of those awful ideas and the fundamentals are no longer threatening.

The problem is the ugly religious doctrines at the core of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.
All you have to do is knock down the core beliefs of these religions. That makes both the beliefs of moderates, as well as those of fundamentalists baseless.

For example, at 1 Corinthians 15:14, the bible says that "[...] if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

Consequently, you demand evidence for the resurrection. If the believers are unable to provide you with anything but the bible as a source, which has been proven to be unreliable, there is no reason they should continue believing.

But continue they do.

People don't or can't think - easy, comfortable faith instead of difficult, uncomforatable thought.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-09-2012, 01:31 PM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2012 03:48 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Dear Islam(the religion)
(22-09-2012 10:23 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Brutal acts against muslims by christians are discussed in the same way that you are seeing reporting of the reverse.
And as ever, the majority reaction is like a herd of zebra who has just witnessed one of their own get munched by lions ... "What happened?!? That's outrageous! I'm still alive... move along".

Do you know about the two sides in the Syrian conflict? Do you know what the Arab Spring resulted in? Tell that to the millions of Muslims throwing an epic temper tantrum in the Islamic world.

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23-09-2012, 09:16 AM
RE: Dear Islam(the religion)
(22-09-2012 01:54 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(21-09-2012 08:40 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Geez, do I have to be in the minority of atheists yet again?

I hated the video. He's eloquent to be sure, but filled with irrationality. He made several stereotypical references to Muslims ("taking time from beating their wives...") and made several exaggerations ("the biggest such and such in the world!"). He played the Nazi card. It has been said that every debate will eventually devolve to someone making a comparison to the Nazis, and that person has lost the debate because they've run out of reason. We're on the right side of this debate. Why is the irrationality of the Muslim debaters being matched with irrationality? We don't have to stoop so low to make our point -- it's a solid point!!!

How is this irrational? Furthermore, when has a rational action ever been successful with Islam? Show me where you can reason with Islamists. Show me where there has been a successful negotiation with Muslims under Shariah Law. You can't reason with unreasonable people.

Now I am not saying that replying with more unreason is the answer, but you have yet to point out why anything Pat Condel said is unreasonable.

For someone with "logic" in their name, you're not acting very logically. Calling all muslims "unreasonable people" is a stereotype -- if it isn't necessary for a person to be unreasonable to be a Muslim, then it isn't true of the entire set of Muslims. There are countries where Islam is the state religion... are those people all Muslim because they're unreasonable? That would be quite a coincidence. How about all those children that were taught that Islam was true before they were old enough to evaluate truth in statements. Are they all unreasonable?

I did point out the things that were unreasonable in Pat Condel's argument -- his stereotypes. And yours. It may be comforting to group people under a label, and that's why the theists often call us "unreasonable" or "immoral" or they assume that we're all positive/strong atheists... but such labels are wrong. They're logically wrong. Unless something is true of a group by definition (such as assuming all atheists don't believe in a god) then it is not true of every member.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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23-09-2012, 09:29 AM
RE: Dear Islam(the religion)
(21-09-2012 10:44 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(21-09-2012 08:40 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Geez, do I have to be in the minority of atheists yet again?

I hated the video. He's eloquent to be sure, but filled with irrationality. He made several stereotypical references to Muslims ("taking time from beating their wives...") and made several exaggerations ("the biggest such and such in the world!"). He played the Nazi card. It has been said that every debate will eventually devolve to someone making a comparison to the Nazis, and that person has lost the debate because they've run out of reason. We're on the right side of this debate. Why is the irrationality of the Muslim debaters being matched with irrationality? We don't have to stoop so low to make our point -- it's a solid point!!!

Yea because civil rationality works with these people...

It's like someone can't make a stereotypical reference any more without someone jumping down their throat. Of course he doesn't mean every single muslim beats their 20 wives. But it is a stereotype for a reaosn and further more he was using it to get his point across.

It may be a "stereotype for a reason", but not necessarily a good reason. The stereotype against democrats, for example, is that they want to expand welfare to include as many people as possible. This is easily refutable, as the last democratic president before Obama (Clinton) reduced the percentage of Americans on welfare to an all-time low since its inception (see Figure 4's flatline, but the whole article is insightful and clarifying). This is mainly due to TANF's creation rather than anything Clinton did, but the point is that this stereotype doesn't fit well because it has more to do with the economy than with anything either party does. So why is this a stereotype? My guess is that it's racially motivated, given what we know of minority support for the democratic party.

Stereotypes are a bad idea for this reason and others. There isn't necessarily smoke just because there's fire -- stereotypes are often built on lies. And even if they are true of the majority (as it probably is in the Muslim example), stereotyping will lead us to misrepresent the attitudes and actions of those who don't fit out stereotype... it doesn't give our opponents the benefit of the doubt, which I imagine is something that we all want for ourselves.

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23-09-2012, 10:17 AM
RE: Dear Islam(the religion)
Muslims are apparently new to the global culture. As such they should get one basic lesson:
Laugh and the world will laugh with you. Cry and you will cry alone.

Their grandparents rode camels and their culture is a blast from the past, they live in a resurrection of the Old Testament tribalism. It's a crazy situation, considering how their ancestors knew how to have fun and do science while Europe was still in the dark. They must learn there is a human sub-species called a white middle class man, which is extremely self-centered and takes nothing seriously. Or shouldn't they?

For me as an European, fundie Christianity is exotic. It's somewhere around here, but not quite in reach. Islam is even more exotic, I've been in Germany and France and seen the streets full of Muslim Turks and Africans. That's all I saw, and one problem with it. There's no way to talk to them. They have a network, ayatollahs say what they want and imams tell it to everyone else. But we have nobody to talk to the ayatollahs and imams, we have no way of organizing ourselves too, except on the net, loosely. Maybe humour IS our only weapon, an immunity reaction of sorts that causes inflammation and fever, in hope that the authorities notice it and do something. That's a price of being free and civilized.
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