Dear Western Atheists (From an ex-muslim)
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04-04-2017, 11:11 AM
Dear Western Atheists (From an ex-muslim)
As u know from my profile and threads that I am an ex-Muslim, we ex-muslim atheists value your courage and bravery for being critical of Christianity, Christian fundies, young earth creationists.
But you folks have freedom of expression, we atheists living in Muslim countries have no rights, we are the most likely to be killed by ISIL & Al Qaeda, before they invade USA, France, UK Germany etc.
I think it is about time to wage war against Islam, there are millions of us in Arab & Islamic countries.
And I know how atheists are very vocal, and you should use your voices to help us with reforming our laws in the Arab world.
Thank you, in advance.
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04-04-2017, 11:24 AM
RE: Dear Western Atheists (From an ex-muslim)
At work.

Hello.

Hug Heart

In my country there is no shame or stigma ( *Provisional 'Relatively' for said terms ) about worshipping or not worshipping any deity.

Sadly, almost every day, I see many and varied attempts to not make this so. Sad

To truly defeat an idea or an ideal?

The only good method is education, understanding, dialogue and expression of empathy.

Hug
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04-04-2017, 11:32 AM
RE: Dear Western Atheists (From an ex-muslim)
(04-04-2017 11:11 AM)Ibrahim95128 Wrote:  As u know from my profile and threads that I am an ex-Muslim, we ex-muslim atheists value your courage and bravery for being critical of Christianity, Christian fundies, young earth creationists.
But you folks have freedom of expression, we atheists living in Muslim countries have no rights, we are the most likely to be killed by ISIL & Al Qaeda, before they invade USA, France, UK Germany etc.
I think it is about time to wage war against Islam, there are millions of us in Arab & Islamic countries.
And I know how atheists are very vocal, and you should use your voices to help us with reforming our laws in the Arab world.
Thank you, in advance.

I think you're being a bit generous to the majority of us atheists, many of us live in societies where a persons religion is pretty irrelevant, and I'd think even my friends in the states would agree that while there are significant pressures to have faith, they are not normally at risk of death if they 'come out'.

I don't think the majority of atheists want a war on any religion, just the freedom to not practice religion without harassment or discrimination.

What do you suggest we can do in order to encourage other countries to reform?
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04-04-2017, 11:45 AM
RE: Dear Western Atheists (From an ex-muslim)
(04-04-2017 11:32 AM)ukatheist Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 11:11 AM)Ibrahim95128 Wrote:  As u know from my profile and threads that I am an ex-Muslim, we ex-muslim atheists value your courage and bravery for being critical of Christianity, Christian fundies, young earth creationists.
But you folks have freedom of expression, we atheists living in Muslim countries have no rights, we are the most likely to be killed by ISIL & Al Qaeda, before they invade USA, France, UK Germany etc.
I think it is about time to wage war against Islam, there are millions of us in Arab & Islamic countries.
And I know how atheists are very vocal, and you should use your voices to help us with reforming our laws in the Arab world.
Thank you, in advance.

I think you're being a bit generous to the majority of us atheists, many of us live in societies where a persons religion is pretty irrelevant, and I'd think even my friends in the states would agree that while there are significant pressures to have faith, they are not normally at risk of death if they 'come out'.

I don't think the majority of atheists want a war on any religion, just the freedom to not practice religion without harassment or discrimination.

What do you suggest we can do in order to encourage other countries to reform?
Encouarge discussions and lectures in collaboration with Universities, NGOs, and Associations.
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04-04-2017, 01:19 PM
RE: Dear Western Atheists (From an ex-muslim)
(04-04-2017 11:11 AM)Ibrahim95128 Wrote:  I think it is about time to wage war against Islam, there are millions of us in Arab & Islamic countries.

Of course, waging anything like a literal war would only entrench religious people in their positions. The best kind of war to wage is the war of ideas, and that's what we are already trying to do in forums such as these. The internet is a great way to make rational alternatives to religious ideas available worldwide.

You could help by discussing the ideas and customs of Islam in this forum, since there aren't too many of us Westerners who have a detailed knowledge of the religion.
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04-04-2017, 01:35 PM
RE: Dear Western Atheists (From an ex-muslim)
(04-04-2017 01:19 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 11:11 AM)Ibrahim95128 Wrote:  I think it is about time to wage war against Islam, there are millions of us in Arab & Islamic countries.

Of course, waging anything like a literal war would only entrench religious people in their positions. The best kind of war to wage is the war of ideas, and that's what we are already trying to do in forums such as these. The internet is a great way to make rational alternatives to religious ideas available worldwide.

You could help by discussing the ideas and customs of Islam in this forum, since there aren't too many of us Westerners who have a detailed knowledge of the religion.

This is true. Most of us are more familiar with the inner workings of Christianity as that's what we're bred into and indoctrinated with from an early age. We have to work harder to learn details of Islam.

We've had ex-Muslims in majority Muslim countries on these forums before, and I always worry for their safety. Though I hope you're able to participate and offer some ideas. Smile
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04-04-2017, 02:51 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2017 02:57 PM by Kernel Sohcahtoa.)
RE: Dear Western Atheists (From an ex-muslim)
(04-04-2017 11:45 AM)Ibrahim95128 Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 11:32 AM)ukatheist Wrote:  I think you're being a bit generous to the majority of us atheists, many of us live in societies where a persons religion is pretty irrelevant, and I'd think even my friends in the states would agree that while there are significant pressures to have faith, they are not normally at risk of death if they 'come out'.

I don't think the majority of atheists want a war on any religion, just the freedom to not practice religion without harassment or discrimination.

What do you suggest we can do in order to encourage other countries to reform?
Encouarge discussions and lectures in collaboration with Universities, NGOs, and Associations.

Thank you for your thread sir: IMO, you are very brave. For what it is worth, I'm glad that you have chosen to come to TTA and exchange thoughts/ideas with this community.

With that said, please forgive me if I’m coming of as ignorant, but if people were to put your suggestions into practice, then do you think that it would open the door to ra’y (individual reason) and ijtihad (intellectual effort) on the part of the practitioners of the Islamic faith/law. Could this open door help the Islamic community reform their religion via endeavor/effort and possibly harmonize it with the plurality of thought (religious, secular, etc.) that is requisite for growth and intercultural understanding in our multi-cultural world?

Also, out of curiosity, what caused practitioners of the Islamic faith (between the ninth and thirteenth centuries; I apologize if my dates are too broad/incorrect) to close the door to ra’y and ijtihad (Glenn, pg 202*)? Did these two concepts cause too great a conflict with the divine nature of Islamic law? Do you think that integrating ra'y and ijtihad back into the Islamic faith will be helpful in creating a more constructive future for the Islamic community and the world community as a whole? Thanks, sir.

References

*Glenn, Patrick H. (2014). Legal Traditions of the World (5th ed). United Kingdom: Oxford University Press.

"I'm fearful when I see people substituting fear for reason." Klaatu, from The Day The Earth Stood Still (1951)
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04-04-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: Dear Western Atheists (From an ex-muslim)
(04-04-2017 02:51 PM)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 11:45 AM)Ibrahim95128 Wrote:  Encouarge discussions and lectures in collaboration with Universities, NGOs, and Associations.

Thank you for your thread sir: IMO, you are very brave. For what it is worth, I'm glad that you have chosen to come to TTA and exchange thoughts/ideas with this community.

With that said, please forgive me if I’m coming of as ignorant, but if people were to put your suggestions into practice, do you think that it would open the door to ra’y (individual reason) and ijtihad (intellectual effort) on the part of the practitioners of the Islamic faith/law, so that they can reform their religion via endeavor/effort and possibly harmonize it with the plurality of thought (religious, secular, etc.) that is requisite for growth and intercultural understanding in our multi-cultural world?

Also, out of curiosity, what caused practitioners of the Islamic faith (between the ninth and thirteenth centuries; I apologize if my dates are too broad/incorrect) to close the door to ra’y and ijtihad (Glenn, pg 202*)? Did these two concepts cause too great a conflict with the divine nature of Islamic law? Do you think that integrating ra'y and ijtihad back into the Islamic faith will be helpful in creating a more constructive future for the Islam community and the world community as a whole? Thanks, sir.

References

*Glenn, Patrick H. (2014). Legal Traditions of the World (5th ed). United Kingdom: Oxford University Press.
I will respond later, when I do some research about the questions u asked me.
I am in Lebanon, so it is much easier being an atheist legally, but every Lebanese citizen will have the religious sect oj his/her own ID card according to his/her parents religion.
Socially, most of the business areas people don't care about religion and many of them are unaffiliated because of the heavy presence of Syrian Socialist Nationalist party, and Communist party, and in Universities too.
However in villages Christian are powerful, poor areas like Northern Lebanon salafists have influence, and in Southern Lebanon and Beirut Suburbs Hezbollah control them. So atheists and secularists are not very tolerated in these areas.
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04-04-2017, 03:09 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2017 03:24 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Dear Western Atheists (From an ex-muslim)
(04-04-2017 02:51 PM)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote:  Also, out of curiosity, what caused practitioners of the Islamic faith (between the ninth and thirteenth centuries; I apologize if my dates are too broad/incorrect) to close the door to [reason and intellect]? Did these two concepts cause too great a conflict with the divine nature of Islamic law?

You can blame Abū Ḥāmid Muḥammad ibn Muḥammad al-Ghazālī:

"Al-Ghazali [1058 – 1111] has been referred to by some historians as the single most influential Muslim after the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Within Islamic civilization he is considered to be a Mujaddid or renewer of the faith, who, according to tradition, appears once every century to restore the faith of the community. His works were so highly acclaimed by his contemporaries that al-Ghazali was awarded the honorific title "Proof of Islam" (Hujjat al-Islam). Others have cited his opposition to certain strands of Islamic philosophy as a detriment to Islamic scientific progress, although he argued for the separation of philosophy and science."

"His 11th century book titled The Incoherence of the Philosophers marks a major turn in Islamic epistemology. The encounter with skepticism led al-Ghazali to embrace a form of theological occasionalism, or the belief that all causal events and interactions are not the product of material conjunctions but rather the immediate and present Will of God. The Incoherence also marked a turning point in Islamic philosophy in its vehement rejections of Aristotle and Plato. The book took aim at the falasifa, a loosely defined group of Islamic philosophers from the 8th through the 11th centuries (most notable among them Avicenna and Al-Farabi) who drew intellectually upon the Ancient Greeks."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali
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04-04-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: Dear Western Atheists (From an ex-muslim)
(04-04-2017 01:19 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 11:11 AM)Ibrahim95128 Wrote:  I think it is about time to wage war against Islam, there are millions of us in Arab & Islamic countries.

Of course, waging anything like a literal war would only entrench religious people in their positions. The best kind of war to wage is the war of ideas, and that's what we are already trying to do in forums such as these. The internet is a great way to make rational alternatives to religious ideas available worldwide.

You could help by discussing the ideas and customs of Islam in this forum, since there aren't too many of us Westerners who have a detailed knowledge of the religion.
I agree with you, I am a pacifist and by war I mean it is time to criticize Islam.
And we should always engage in debate between us atheists and secularists in order to solve issues.
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