Death
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09-08-2013, 03:34 PM
RE: Death
(09-08-2013 03:14 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 02:46 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  I think we'll all have to face that "No atheist in the foxhole thing", at the end. My Mom fought it! When we brought Hospice in, they said she probably wouldn't make it through the weekend. She survived another three years!

Dad (who was also a Hospice patient) just kind of kept doing his thing. Drinking! But now he had morphine! Morphine and booze! Probably not a good combination! He seemed healthier than Mom, But he died long before her!

Sounds like he had a much better time of it!

That's actually true! Dad went quick! He was up and walking. I never had to change his diaper, or really do anything for him. He just lived until the last day.

Mom hung on! The stress (for me) was almost unbearable. I won't lie. I wished her dead, many times, before she did die. Understand that I loved my Mom! But I lived to serve! It was work, cook, clean, check insulin, wipe ass.

I'd rather go like Dad did! Mom got a few more years. But I paid the price for that.
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09-08-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: Death
(09-08-2013 03:16 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 03:00 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  I think that's a valid argument. We all have our hero's, who "live forever". Writers, artists, movie stars.

But (Again, no children here) Aren't children something different?

I felt no need for children for most of my life. And, truthfully, I think I would have been a terrible father! I'm too self absorbed! But there's the idea of ones value in life. I think kids (if you've raised them successfully) might make you feel your life had value.
I don't think you have to be a movie star to feel like you made an impact on people. Just being a fabulous person all the time is enough to influence the people around you.

As for raising kids giving your life value, well, i guess if your life has absolutely no value otherwise, that might make you feel better and like you did something. But I don't think that's a great reason to have kids, I think people should have kids because they want to raise children, not because they just want to clone themselves or cop out from having to do anything else with their time. It makes sense on a biological level, continuation of the species, but the idea does nothing for me on an individual level.

Well, I realize that our lives have no "real" value. I just wonder if, statistically, people who have children feel more valuable to society than those of us who don't. And if they are happier?

I am 50 years old, so it's basically too late for me to have children (and raise them). So, the question is academic.
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09-08-2013, 07:51 PM
RE: Death
(09-08-2013 10:44 AM)morondog Wrote:  Ah... see now this is where it gets interesting.

What empirical observations have you made, what hypotheses have you come up with and *how have you tested them* ?
I have made an observation, for example an appearance of a line of tingling pressure in a given area of body - on face, torso, back, or head for example. Then I looked it up on meridian chart and there it was, a meridian line. Known to Chinese medicine for a thousand of years. I had corresponding observations with spinal channels and chakras. But these meridians, with most of them I did not know they were there.

(09-08-2013 10:44 AM)morondog Wrote:  You say people should take their perceptions seriously but I *know* that my senses are not trustworthy. I can make a hypothesis that my senses are trying to tell me something when I get a scary feeling... maybe there's a ghost in the room ? But I need to confirm this hypothesis, I can't just believe it willy-nilly, is there really no other explanation for the sensation ? Since I already distrust my senses, can I somehow confirm that my senses are trustworthy ?
If you can drive a car, you can trust your senses.
Your brain is a biologic machine. Machines do not work, they are being worked by the energy in their circuits. They have no choice but to work. They can not turn themselves off. So whatever our senses tell us, it is a sign of something. Something had to happen that triggered the neurons.

Now what is it? I don't know, I only know that people keep having exactly the same kind of sensations for all recorded history and they keep inventing religions around them.

(09-08-2013 11:24 AM)Dom Wrote:  So which of your "senses" was this?

Are you not talking about a feeling/emotion?

Your feelings/emotions are the brain counterpart to the physical alarm systems - pain and pleasure.

An alarm went off - based on some sight/sound/touch/thought connection with the current situation. The trigger can be hard coded or soft coded. All it is trying to do is to get you to pay attention.

Then it is up to your conscious brain to draw conclusions...
No, in majority of cases I mean touch sense only. Phenomena of emotions are comparatively rare. There is the classical accompanying ringing hiss, but nevermind. I should rather call them sensations, that's the word.

I think I might have a neurological anomaly that makes some of these sensations more accessible, but people all across the history kept having the same kinds of sensations later in life, even totally spontaneously.
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09-08-2013, 09:32 PM
RE: Death
(09-08-2013 03:48 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 03:16 PM)amyb Wrote:  I don't think you have to be a movie star to feel like you made an impact on people. Just being a fabulous person all the time is enough to influence the people around you.

As for raising kids giving your life value, well, i guess if your life has absolutely no value otherwise, that might make you feel better and like you did something. But I don't think that's a great reason to have kids, I think people should have kids because they want to raise children, not because they just want to clone themselves or cop out from having to do anything else with their time. It makes sense on a biological level, continuation of the species, but the idea does nothing for me on an individual level.

Well, I realize that our lives have no "real" value. I just wonder if, statistically, people who have children feel more valuable to society than those of us who don't. And if they are happier?

I am 50 years old, so it's basically too late for me to have children (and raise them). So, the question is academic.

Raising children isn't for the faint of heart that's for sure. I totally loved it! And I would have hated my life without children. I have a very strong mothering instinct. But death doesn't bother me too much. I mean I don't want to die until I know my kids are really on their own and responsible for themselves.

I truly think of death as the same state as it was before you were born. If I go backwards in time before my birth I don't have any fear of pre-birth and I've never met or heard of anyone fearing their pre-birth. So why fear post-life? It's the same state of being. Nothing. Like I always say, nothingness is just fine. It's merely the absence of everything.

This may sound odd but traditional Japanese paintings have had a great influence on me. In many Japanese paintings the use of nothingness is wonderful and it makes the one little use of ink that much more extraordinary. Life (the ink) with out death has no meaning.

My, aren't I Zen-like today. Jesus christ!

[Image: iris-painting.jpg]

My only problem with death is the suffering one has to go through before one dies. Just give me a damn overdose so I can get it over with.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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09-08-2013, 10:34 PM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2013 01:16 PM by morondog.)
RE: Death
(09-08-2013 07:51 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I have made an observation, for example an appearance of a line of tingling pressure in a given area of body - on face, torso, back, or head for example. Then I looked it up on meridian chart and there it was, a meridian line. Known to Chinese medicine for a thousand of years. I had corresponding observations with spinal channels and chakras. But these meridians, with most of them I did not know they were there.
Pins and needles = life after death ? Are you sure there's no other explanation than this? I don't care that Chinese medicine has postulated this for 1000 years, lets assume you're the first Chinese scientist back in the day, how do you confirm that this is a meridian line ? I don't deny that you might find this tingling sensation, but how do you know that it corresponds to this meridian line causing it ?

It seems more to me like a self-confirming observation. You get pins and needles in some area, you look it up on the chart. Whoa! There's a meridian line there! It must be the meridian line giving me pins and needles...

Other example observations ? Um... by the way, this is standard shredding hey, not trying to call you stoopid or anything, but this is the kind of thing that every critically evaluated idea should be subjected to. Only the ones that remain standing are then worthy of further consideration.

(09-08-2013 10:44 AM)morondog Wrote:  If you can drive a car, you can trust your senses.
Your brain is a biologic machine. Machines do not work, they are being worked by the energy in their circuits. They have no choice but to work. They can not turn themselves off. So whatever our senses tell us, it is a sign of something. Something had to happen that triggered the neurons.
I can drive a car because my senses in general are good enough that it's not dangerous. If I'm drunk, my senses function but driving a car is a bad idea. Now when I'm drunk I know I may perceive reality different that when I'm sober. Since as you say perception is caused by something, which reality shall I choose to believe ? This is why I need something outside my own senses to cross-check. Human brain is an amazing object, evolved over millenia, you're asking me to believe that it is a precisely calibrated measuring tool too ? How about mentally ill people, they perceive a different reality. I would say that their brains *interpret* this reality differently. If I can trust my brain, can I be sure that I am not mentally ill ?

Quote:I think I might have a neurological anomaly that makes some of these sensations more accessible, but people all across the history kept having the same kinds of sensations later in life, even totally spontaneously.
But... weird sensation implies whole alternate reality only detectable through weird sensations seems like a bit of a leap ?
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10-08-2013, 11:52 AM
RE: Death
Dancefortwo:

I agree with what you've said. We've all BEEN dead. I've even used that argument with others. But, even with all the crap I've had to deal with in my life: I dread being dead again! I know it won't be some terrible experience. It will be no experience at all! Not good or bad.

But there will come a day, when I can't pluck a fresh tomato from my garden and enjoy that brief taste of life! I fear that! I don't know why, but I do.
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10-08-2013, 12:03 PM
RE: Death
(10-08-2013 11:52 AM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  But there will come a day, when I can't pluck a fresh tomato from my garden and enjoy that brief taste of life! I fear that! I don't know why, but I do.

The trick is to savor it while you can.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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10-08-2013, 12:11 PM
RE: Death
(10-08-2013 12:03 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The trick is to savor it while you can.

Yeah, some tomatoes can be really flavoursome.
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10-08-2013, 12:26 PM
RE: Death
(06-08-2013 05:38 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I don't like the idea of it. I've spent more than a few nights lying awake thinking about it, but I've come to accept it, death that is.

There have been a few people close to me who have died, one good friend who chose to take his own life while he was just entering the prime of it, and he had so much to offer this world. He was probably the first atheist I had ever met, too. But I can't change any of it and there isn't any point in dwelling on whether I might have been able to or not.

Life isn't made up of what could have beens, or what might be's. Life is now and it's best served with every moment enjoyed to the utmost for what it is. Death, whether your own or a loved one's, is inevitable and the sooner this is realized and incorporated into your expectations the better.

I wouldn't want to live forever, I think immortality would be a curse. But it would be nice to be able to choose when, and how I go. But alas, you can wish in one hand and shit in the other........

It's not bad to contemplate or fear death, anyone who claims they never do is selling something. But it's not healthy to dwell on it for too long, just be grateful for the amazing opportunity to experience the present.

Amen brother! Though, I have to admit I would be with immortality at this point.
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10-08-2013, 12:28 PM
RE: Death
(10-08-2013 12:26 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  
(06-08-2013 05:38 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I don't like the idea of it. I've spent more than a few nights lying awake thinking about it, but I've come to accept it, death that is.

There have been a few people close to me who have died, one good friend who chose to take his own life while he was just entering the prime of it, and he had so much to offer this world. He was probably the first atheist I had ever met, too. But I can't change any of it and there isn't any point in dwelling on whether I might have been able to or not.

Life isn't made up of what could have beens, or what might be's. Life is now and it's best served with every moment enjoyed to the utmost for what it is. Death, whether your own or a loved one's, is inevitable and the sooner this is realized and incorporated into your expectations the better.

I wouldn't want to live forever, I think immortality would be a curse. But it would be nice to be able to choose when, and how I go. But alas, you can wish in one hand and shit in the other........

It's not bad to contemplate or fear death, anyone who claims they never do is selling something. But it's not healthy to dwell on it for too long, just be grateful for the amazing opportunity to experience the present.

Amen brother! Though, I have to admit I would be happy with immortality at this point.
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