Death and beyond
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21-02-2012, 12:37 PM
Death and beyond
Not sure where to put this, but since I am a newbie here and I do believe that science will be providing the answer for this eventually, I am putting it here. Please feel free to move it.

I have witnessed a number of deaths now, both people and animals. And while there are things that appear to be in common, there are also a lot of individual differences.

But, regardless of causes of death and species, the one fact remains: There is an energy, and it then disappears from our view. You can pinpoint the exact second when it just disappears.

Now, physics tell us that energy always has to go some place.

Here is an overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy

I think that there is a lot more to energy than we know at this time. Humans have researched energy for a long time, since we like to harness it to do work for us. We have found a couple of different types of energy, and combinations thereof. We can only measure energy we are aware of. I find that extremely limiting. My thinking is that we haven't even scratched the surface yet, and when we do, it will blow religion out of the water.

All the religions I have looked at presume that after death we retain a thinking, feeling consciousness. I think that something does happen after death, but that there is no consciousness of any type. I think that an energy leaves the body and goes - where? Transforms -into what? Joins other energy - of what type?

When we have that answer, the whole heaven and hell business will not have a leg to stand on. (Not that it does now....)

Just random thoughts here....

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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21-02-2012, 02:10 PM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2012 03:29 PM by kim.)
RE: Death and beyond
(21-02-2012 12:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  I think that an energy leaves the body and goes - where? Transforms -into what? Joins other energy - of what type?
Just random thoughts here....

Ha - more random thoughts ...

We can observe the spontaneous change of ice to water, but dispersal of energy goes relatively unnoticed when we have a glass of water with ice in it. The molecules have to change in both the ice and the surrounding water for dispersal to take place. The energy is dispersed into the surrounding water and gas comes out as bubbles. Everything mixes but it's difficult to really notice the dispersal of energy much when it's surrounded by everything that it's very soon going to become a part of.

I've always thought about energy leaving the body upon death, since death is a biological function which involves the spontaneous change in the operation of millions of cells. It is a scientific fact that spontaneous changes are always accompanied by a dispersal of energy into a less ordered form. Entropy is time's arrow... or so I'm told. Wink

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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21-02-2012, 02:11 PM
RE: Death and beyond
I'm sorry but this thread is just not going to work without a picture of Buzz Lightyear:

[Image: Buzz-Lightyear-Action-Figure.jpg]

Ok, carry on.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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21-02-2012, 02:13 PM
RE: Death and beyond
Swell pic! Smile
Heart
TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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21-02-2012, 02:36 PM
RE: Death and beyond
I guess my assumption is that the energy is the form of potential energy stored within the cells of our body. Any energy that is being used, or burned, to operate our bodies is simply burned up and processed as normal until the point we die. Any energy that was waiting to be burned up and processed simply waits in its potential energy form until the body decays, other animals/bugs/bacteria- basically any other life forms- then feed on the body's potential energy and transform it into energy of their own.

The body just stops being capable of using its stored energy and it is recycled into the circle of life. I don't personally picture any mass of energy being dispersed into the universe. I would think it more subtle than that- but no less amazing.

However, I don't disagree that there is probably lots more to energy than we know now. And when we discover it, we will be amazed! Big Grin

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21-02-2012, 03:02 PM
RE: Death and beyond
I don't think so, not from what I have observed. I think at there is a burst of energy released all at once.

The thing is that you can actually SEE the energy leave. It withdraws from the extremities first, and it seems that after the heart stops and the breathing stops, only then does the energy finally seem to leave the eyes. Only then consciousness has ceased completely. So I guess it leaves through the brain.

It is not like it just goes poof all at once, it has a path through the body. Depending on the cause of death, this path can be travelled quickly or take days to travel. The so-called "natural death" (probably doesn't even exist the way people think of it, there is likely always a distinct physical malfunction) is always very slow and takes a path that has been described many places by many people, including lots of health professionals. And, even the layman can observe it happen.

In several cultures older people will remove themselves from society to go and die - when they feel it coming. This allows a peaceful, slow passing, unlike what happens in today's hospitals where strangers poke at you and disturb your peace until your last breath and beyond.

And then you have the odd thing of resuscitation, where the energy has already left but does return to power the body. That is really weird.

Energy doesn't just dissipate, it always goes some place or transforms into something else. Energy is perpetual motion.

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21-02-2012, 03:35 PM
RE: Death and beyond
This is something I've never heard of, so I guess I can't really counter what you're saying. I personally haven't witnessed a person dieing... I've seen animals die, but not a person (nor do I wish to), so I've never seen nor heard of people saying you can see the energy leave a body.

I know that the body begins to shut down vital organs and access to extremities as the body shuts down. Is this what you're talking about?

Also, I want to clarify, I don't just believe that energy "dissipates" or disappears or anything. I know it's always transformed.

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21-02-2012, 05:41 PM
RE: Death and beyond
(21-02-2012 03:35 PM)kineo Wrote:  This is something I've never heard of, so I guess I can't really counter what you're saying. I personally haven't witnessed a person dieing... I've seen animals die, but not a person (nor do I wish to), so I've never seen nor heard of people saying you can see the energy leave a body.

I know that the body begins to shut down vital organs and access to extremities as the body shuts down. Is this what you're talking about?

Also, I want to clarify, I don't just believe that energy "dissipates" or disappears or anything. I know it's always transformed.

I didn't mean you can see the energy leave the body THAT way. (Boy this is hard to put in words, so bear with me please.) I meant you can see the path it takes as it moves towards leaving the body. And you can see precisely the moment it is here and then gone.

And animals are the same as people in this - at least, I know mammals are.

And no, you probably don't want to see someone die. I don't know how old you are, but this for some reason gets easier as you get older.

There will be a time when you are losing a long term life partner that you want to be there, to support that person and to make things go smoothly. The other person I was with was my mom.

Anyway, the topic was what may be happening with that energy. And how science may eventually clear this up and let a lot of people put this heaven/hell thing in the fiction department.

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22-02-2012, 01:21 PM
RE: Death and beyond
(21-02-2012 12:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  But, regardless of causes of death and species, the one fact remains: There is an energy, and it then disappears from our view. You can pinpoint the exact second when it just disappears.

Now, physics tell us that energy always has to go some place.

Well..I suppose in a sense you are correct. The body produces its own weak electrical field which, from what I gather, is a by-product of bio-chemical processes.
When there is electrical activity in the brain and nerves then it is detected by rather simple machines.

When the body dies then the residue electricity dissipates much like static electricity is dispersed into the air.
Same with body heat, since the biological processes are no longer there to replenish it then the heat is absorbed and dissipated.
However physical matter, from what I have read, is simply molecular energy whose frequencies at a current vibrational resonance which allows us, on this planet, to interact with it because we too are at the same frequency.

As for some manner of anima, I cannot be certain whether or not such a force exists and if it did I cannot be certain that it exists in a anthropomorphic state.

Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return.
To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
That is Alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange.
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22-02-2012, 05:35 PM
RE: Death and beyond
Dom
I think what you are describing is the body shutting down, therefore no use of energy there anymore.
The body will always shut down extremeties first.
That is Fingers / Toes > Hands / Feet > Arms / Legs > the middle of you body (organs shut down heart stops beating) > last is the brain. Ask a doctor or go have a full first aider training (at least the two day course) then you will learn about this in detail.

Btw this order is why I learned in my training at the German Federal Agency for Technical Relief (THW, Technisches Hilfswerk) that when people couldn't move for a long time (buried under something that fell on them) or have been hanging somewhere for a long time (like a paraglider hanging in a tree or so) you are not supposed to make them move or to make them stand or sit. Because the body may have started shutting down and it has to slowly start working again, otherwise you risk heart attacks by increasing the bloodflow too fast, heart is beating slowly at the time, and most ressources are going towards the brain. But that's just a OT-shorty.

So as far as I understand from what I know from doctors and my trainings is not that energy is leaving your body, it is more, your body stops using up energy or potential energy sources like fat cells, sugar....
And at this point I am with kineo.
those potential sources will wait to be used otherwise. Nothing gets lost in nature. Either the worms eat you or you burn and the fire (heat and light) is the excess energy. It's like the sun, what we get is excess energy pretty much, from a dieng star.
Wow right now I could keep writing, very interesting topic! Wonderful.

Just it is late and I am really tired, so I will go on from work I guess.

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