Debate With a friend
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24-08-2013, 07:10 PM
Debate With a friend
So I recently got into a debate with a friend of mine after coming out, and I just wanted to get a perspective on it. I've been literally facepalming over what my fiend has said I need someone to give me a logical perspective. It's a pretty long discussion just so you know.

___Wednesday

10:40pm
Theist
Hey man! I have been gone since Monday for this retreat at my school. There are a few things I wonder about evolution. It is an interesting theory to the creation of humanity. I just wonder about some things that's all. Like, A large explosion created matter... I kind of get confused with this because explosions don't usually create things right? I don't know. And if this is the case where did the matter come from to generate this explosion. It doesn't add up to me. Now If there was evidence of a "missing link" I think this would cause a lot of controversy. But if you look at a chart for evolution that has pictures of The fish, and then it has arrows pointing to, the lizard, and then the bird, there is nothing in between these arrows where the links should be. Also, we get gasoline from oils right, which come from animals that are buried beneath the ground. We get these oils from mining into the ground... There is no controversy here. We mine for our transportation.... simple. Well how did all of these animals get buried under the ground? I don't think that all of these animals dug into the ground... they must have been buried by something. This screams global flood to me... Not to mention that they have found fish fossils in the grand canyon. Or that they have found sharks teeth in northern Iowa. I find a flood just a tad bit more believable than a meteorite crashing into the earth off of the coast of Mexico... You understand? ( : I hope you research the creationists point of view also and not just the evolutionists. romans 3:23, For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. No one is perfect and we all are equally bad people. This is the reason for sin. Because man is not good. we are a confused and perverse creation. But still God loves us! I'm praying for you man! I'll send you a few links of the creationists point of view. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. It is what it says it is. ( : Have an awesome day!

10:46pm
Theist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RwKdBUjoDA
deBunked - pt3 - The Bible is Unreliable Because It's Full of Errors
http://www.youtube.com
Visit rforh.com to order the dvd, find out more about Carl Kerby, get the deBunked study course, book a speaker, and/or browse many other great resources in ...

10:47pm
Theist
This video helped me understand a little of what you're going through. enjoy my friend!
so should this... enjoy my friend!

10:50pm
Theist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1I4-ZjbxWk

deBunked - pt4 - I Can Have Real Hope without God
http://www.youtube.com
Visit rforh.com to order the dvd, find out more about Carl Kerby, get the deBunked study course, book a speaker, and/or browse many other great resources in ...
Thursday

4:14pm
Derek Hammar
I

4:39pm
Derek Hammar
Oops pressed enter
Anyways i'll try to answer as many questions as I can
1) Explosion created matter?
This is a very common question, and it's a very difficult concept, but how you get matter is simple. There was a very small point of high density energy. This energy is so dense and so hot that it physically cannot cool down enough to form matter. After the big bang, this energy spread out and cooled down, and gravity pulled the matter together forming stars. This is a basic explanation, but you can get more in the book "A universe from nothing"
2)Evolution
Yes, a chart will show animal→other animal. They do not show every transition because it would take up too much space. Here's a few transitional fossils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tra...l_fossils)
3) Global Flood
Ahh, the Noah's ark story. This is one of the things that led me away from religion. Firstly, I want to point out that there is a controversy over where oil came from. There is oil on other planets like Jupiter, which obviously didn't have dinosaurs. As far as how fossils could get that deep, it's because after the animal dies and decays, water runs sediment over it building up slowly over millions of years. Fossils are found in sedimentary rock because of this. This is also a good way to determine the age of a fossil (carbon dating then confirms predictions made by location). Now I'd like to point out something about the ark. You believe that 5 (or 6, can remember) people 500+ years old, traveled all around the world collecting every animal in the world? And somehow kept the lions from eating zebras, ect. And also, there was only one window and one door on the ark, so these 500+ year olds shoveled all the poop out and fed all the animals? The only answer I can get from creationists is "god did it".
Thursday

11:13pm
Theist
I see. Very interesting. What I'm still confused about is that before there was an explosion there was absolutely nothing. No matter, no organisms. So there is no way to create energy right? Nothing is circling around and nothing Is bumping into anything to Create energy. Sorry I really don't mean to seem like I'm arguing. I am just confused. That's all. I'm really confused about the moon then. Every year it moves a few centimeters away from the earth. If the earth really is 40 million. ( lol I don't know how old) shouldn't the moon be gone? Making us all dead. And if the evolution chart doesn't even have one example of a missing link that they have found... Doesn't that defeat the purpose of even making a chart? I just find that God creating the universe with his perfect plan that actually has evidences to back it up makes a lot more sense than a super dee duper chance. Carbon dating has given us so many different results to the earths age. If a calculator gives you incorrect answers math answers you need to get rid of it right? I want you to really think Derek. Think about what I'm saying. Trust me man! The world is so full of different explanations to creation. Only Gods explanation makes sense. Trust me Derek! Trust you're loved ones and the pastor of Adventure life church. People who have spent you're whole life talking to you about Jesus Christ and how he died for your sins. He wants to have a personal relationship with you! He loves you more than we can even understand! Our brains can't understand everything. Do some more research on creation! When I watch videos about evolution I get so confused and mixed up. Just YouTube some stuff. Ken Ham, Carl Kirby. They can explain to you so much more! God is do amazing Derek, he loves you so much! Invest some more time into some creationist research. Watching a video about an evolutionist critique a creationist won't give you the research you're looking for. Don't side with an evolutionist worldview until you have really studied the creationist worldview. I'm praying for you my friend. I will help you on your quest for the truth. I can be the person to talk to if you're going through pain or whatever he problem. No matter what you decide to believe I will still be your friend. If you feel really stressed about these conflicting faiths, do some talking with your parents. There smarter than you think. Mine surprise me all the time with relationship advice with my girlfriend. If you really want to talk to someone though... Pray to God about it. ( : if you want you can come to church with me this Sunday! It Wednesday! Just ask man! (other theist) goes to my church as well. Stay strong Derek! James 1:6- you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of he sea, blown and tossed by the wind. I'm praying for you Derek. Have a great day!

7:05pm
Derek Hammar
1) I don't understand the pre-big bang either, and as far as I know nobody does. We do not know where the energy for the big bang came from, we only know that it got there. One hypothesis is that before the big bang there was a universe, and the combined gravity of that universe came together in a "Big Crunch" (might also happen to our universe) to create the energy for the big bang.
2) Moon.
The moon is receding at about 1.5 inches per year, and the moon is about 240,000 miles away. 1.5 inches * 4.5 billion years = 6750000000 inches = 106534. 240,000-106,534=133,466 miles. So, the closest that the moon would ever have been would be at 133,466 miles, and this would be before life had formed anyways. Life didn't form on earth for another billion years, and complex life didn't form 1.5 billion years after that! So you see, we wouldn't all be dead, mostly because we weren't alive then in the first place.
3) Evidence for god
Umm... I've been looking this up for quite some time, and have yet to find any, I'd be glad to hear any though.
4) Ahh... Carbon dating. I know that grandview tells you that it's unreliable, I've had the same conversation with davis evans. Carbon dating is inaccurate to measure the age of the earth, true, but only because you don't use carbon dating to measure the earth. It's called radiometric dating, and to measure the age of the earth you would use uranium, not carbon. Radiometric dating is veritably accurate, and if you will never hear differently from any scientist.
5) Sure evolution is confusing, but that's because it's being explained using data, not feelings.
6) Ken Ham is... well. I've seen his videos before and the only way I can describe him may sound harsh. He's an idiot. I've seen his "creation museum", and let me tell you it insults the word museum. He shows people riding on dinosaurs, on saddles. It is rife with scientific inaccuracy.
I'm not going to be praying, I don't believe in god. Keep in mind I WAS a christian. I went to church for years, it was only when I did research bible proofs to argue with atheists that I became one myself. One more thing I would like to point out is that I have shown you how every argument you had is false, without rebuttal (not that this is an argument), so what further reason do you have to believe?
7)Bible
I have read the bible and continue to do so, I love to read it.
"And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron - Judges 1:19
(Interesting how all it takes to defeat god is iron chariots)
Today

1:13am
Theist
I repect you a lot Derek... You're a really bright kid. Sorry I didn't talk to you about the ark from my point of view. Basically the measurements have been made, and they are actually building a life size replica of it! Lol, pretty neat! They have proven that the ark was able to fit all of the animals, food, and poop shoveling material. It makes a lot of sense. Look into it. It's super cool! In this chapter of judges, Joshua was dead and the Isralites were asking God who he wanted them to conquer next. Literally two verses before Judah 1:19, It says, then Judah joined Simeon to fight against the Canaanites living in Zephath, and they completely destroyed the town. So the town was named Hormah.* verse 18 just names a few more specific towns that they captured in the surrounding area. Verse 19 isn't a verse that can be used to make a defensive point. You see, Canaanite chariots pulled by horses were among the most sophisticated weapons of the day. Israelite foot soldiers were basically powerless when a speeding iron chariot bore down upon them. This is the reason the Israelites preffered to fight in the hills, because the chariots couldn't handle the terrain. God was with them... That didn't make them immortal though. It's common sense. God was in the Israelites favor for casting out the wicked in the 12 tribes... I'd like to know something. You put you're faith and trust in Jesus Christ years ago correct? Making you a Christian. You can't lose you're salvation, and you can't give it back to God. If you, on your journey, fall and claim that you are an agnostic atheist and deny the God you put your trust in years ago... Then you weren't really a Christian in the first place. I could give you so many more facts about creation Derek. You began strong as a Christian like all do. You were on fire for Jesus at one point. Anything anyone could say wouldn't have changed the love and faith you had in Jesus. You probably would have argued with people about evolution. If I would have told you about 4 years ago that you were going to become an atheist in the summer of 2013 just because you did some research, you would have stopped being my friend and never talked to me again. I remember Derek. You loved God. You read the Bible. I went to church with you a few times. I listened to you pray at dinner time. But now... You base your faith on something that has no proof, no facts, and no reasonable explanation. All evolution has is just a bunch of hypothesis. You even referred to a hypothesis in the last message you sent. You said, one hypothesis before the big bang... You just put more faith into something someone guessed happened, as opposed to putting your faith in something actually logical. Back to the moon, remember how when they made the first shuttle to land on the moon, they had really long legs for landing because scientists thought that millions of years of dust was pilled up on the moon. There was just enough dust to kick with the boot of Neil armstrongs foot. That screams 10,000 years of existence. Dont give me anymore examples, or try to change the subject. This really makes sense. If there was millions or billions of years of dust forming on the moon, it would be 20 some feet deep, if not more. But it wasn't. It was inches deep! Don't you see. In The book of Judges, Joshuas tribe began strong working to please God, but then they became sidetracked by fear, weariness, lack of discipline, or pursuit of their own interests. As a result there faith in God began to fade away! Then the people did what was right in there own eyes! Which was sin! Chapter (17:6). In order for your faith to survive, it must be practiced day by day! I struggle with focusing on God myself. I don't read near enough of his word, and devote nearly enough time to him. How I'm not an atheist myself is a PRAISE TO GOD! Seriously! Derek I really hope you think about what I am trying to tell you! You weren't grounded in God's word and then you fell. It says in Ephesians 13 verse 21: But since they don't have deep roots they don't last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God's word. Derek, you weren't rooted in God's word or in him. As soon as you found some information on evolution you studied it for like a 2 and a half months and then sided with it! It breaks my heart. Come back Derek. Its never to late. God is truly good! I urge you to come to church with me sometime. God is not dead. He is surely alive! -newsboys. Don't close your heart to God. Don't harden your heart and cover yourself up with hypothesis. Deep down you know that evolution doesn't make sense. It is an interesting theory, but it is not correct. If I didn't care about you Derek then I wouldn't have spent two hours writing this message. I seriously spent that long. This isn't a joke to me. I believe this with 100% of my being. I'm praying for you Derek. It is not me who can change your views though it is God alone. Read Matthew chapter 7 Derek. It's applicable to many areas of life. Have a great day my friend! ( :
Today

8:02pm
Derek Hammar
1) Noah's Ark
They are building an ark, and when it's built I look forward to them trying to put every animal on the boat, because it won't work. The dimensions of the boat are 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. Sounds big right? Well, one whale in 85 ft long, and that's just one animal (admittedly abnormally large). I don't want the "whales didn't need to go on the boat" because they would need to go on the boat, they are saltwater creatures and would die if subjected to the influx of freshwater. You seriously think that every animal in the world would fit into an area LESS than the size of a NFL football field? Even if somehow water-dwelling creatures could magically survive?
2) Iron Chariots
God being with them does make then immortal, if he wants them to win they will win. or do you think god is not omnipotent?
3) My Faith
I did put my faith in god and I was a christian, and I've heard this argument before. You say I wasn't a true christian, I would disagree but neither of us could prove either way so the argument is mute. "If I would have told you about 4 years ago that you were going to become an atheist in the summer of 2013 just because you did some research, you would have stopped being my friend and never talked to me again." No, I wouldn't denounce our friendship because you said I would become an atheist. The same way you don't denounce it because I am an atheist. "You base your faith on something that has no proof, no facts, and no reasonable explanation." I have no faith. I only believe in things with reasonable proof, hence my atheism. I did say that before the big bang was a hypothesis, I wouldn't lie. I do not claim to know before the big bang. I do not profess it to be fact and I apoligise if it came out that way. "All evolution has is just a bunch of hypothesis." Evolution is a proven scientifically validated fact. It has been observed in nature and in the lab. It is debatably the most tested theory of any. Evolution is not a hypothesis. And before you say "it's a theory", look up what theory means in science. The heliocentric theory for example, the theory that the earth revolves around the sun. Evolution is a fact whether you accept it or not. Things like viruses are a good example, you know how the flu comes around every year? Ever wonder why people have to get vaccinated every year? It's because the virus evolves.
4)Moon
Scientists made a miscalculation. It happens. The one who made the observation, Dr.Brown, was man enough to admit it. The argument has been thoroughly debunked although many creationists continue to use it, if you want a more in depth explanation try here (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/d...dust.html)
5)Your Faith
You claim not to be an atheist. I think you are, with the minor acception of one deity. You don't believe in allah, zues, ares, gaia, eros, etc. These are all gods people believed in at least as much as you believe in your god.
6) Bible
You cannot quote the bible to prove the bible, this is like quoting harry potter to prove hogwarts exists.
__________________________________________________
Now I'm going to present my case for atheism, I'd like to know what you have to say.
1) Bible Contradictions
I remember you saying that the bible does not contradict itself, so I figured that I'd clear this up a bit.
A) In Matthew 16:28, which has corresponding verses in Mark and Luke, Jesus says, "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” There is a logical contradiction here since Jesus has not come back even 2000 years later and everyone who was "standing there" in the time of Jesus has died.
B)Genesis 7:1: The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.(Noah was righteous.)
Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
(No one is righteous.)
C) (Last one I promise
Jeremiah 3:12: ... for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever. (God pleads with Israel to repent and return to Him.)
Jeremiah 17:4: Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever. Same book by the way.
2) Big Bang vs. God
You claim the big bang came from nothing and for no reason it exploded into everything we have today. This is a misrepresentation of science, but let's just say you're right. Who then created god? If there needs to be a god because the big bang can't just pop into existence, then the same applies for god. Your argument is self-contradicting in that you claim nothing made the big bang therefore it is false, yet there need not be a creator of god.
3) Bible immorality
a)HEBREWS 12:20 God said that animals must be stoned to death if they lay foot upon Mt. Zion.
b)HOSEA 13:16 Because Israel had rebelled, a wind from the Lord would blow in. They "will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, and their pregnant women ripped open."
c)GENESIS 6 & 7 Unhappy with the wickedness of man, God killed every living thing on the planet except Noah’s family. Men, women, infants and animals drowned in unimaginable terror and agony.
4)Evil
God is omnipotent.
God is omnibenevolent.
God is omniscient.
Evil exists.
We get the following contradiction. If God is omnibenevolent, then he does not want evil to exist. If God is omniscient, then he must know about all evil in the world. If God is omnipotent, then he must be capable of doing something about it. Therefore, evil should not exist.
Leviticus 24:16 Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.
__________
I tried to take out all the names please disregard any if I missed some.

Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. -Laurence J. Peter
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24-08-2013, 07:35 PM
RE: Debate With a friend
Wow! I have seen a couple of these threads and I have to say I kinda feel sorry for all the energy your (collective) friends ask of you.

I'm fortunate no one has really asked a lot of me as an atheist. That could be because I am somewhat domineering in conversation, quick on my feet and a prolific smart ass.

I know it has been hashed out on this forum before so the following question is rhetorical. How come, because I don't believe in god, it's my responsibility to explain the beginning of time?

Every time I try to grasp the first thing, I immediately conjure one MORE thing before that and it makes me feel funny inside so I stop doing that.
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24-08-2013, 08:35 PM
RE: Debate With a friend
(24-08-2013 07:35 PM)Regular_Joe Wrote:  Wow! I have seen a couple of these threads and I have to say I kinda feel sorry for all the energy your (collective) friends ask of you.

I'm fortunate no one has really asked a lot of me as an atheist. That could be because I am somewhat domineering in conversation, quick on my feet and a prolific smart ass.

I know it has been hashed out on this forum before so the following question is rhetorical. How come, because I don't believe in god, it's my responsibility to explain the beginning of time?

Every time I try to grasp the first thing, I immediately conjure one MORE thing before that and it makes me feel funny inside so I stop doing that.
I guess I like having these conversations, and I don't know if you read the whole thing but where he kept saying evolution was a hypothesis I was literally facepalming(i don't do that often). I don't get it either, we claim not to know how the universe came into being, so therefore we must explain how the universe came into being? WTF logic.

Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. -Laurence J. Peter
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24-08-2013, 08:36 PM
RE: Debate With a friend
Oh, and just to be clear this is one conversation with one friend, I have more! This is just the current debate, I sent the last argument a few hours ago.

Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. -Laurence J. Peter
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28-08-2013, 12:28 AM
RE: Debate With a friend
I have had very similar debates. You are fortunate, at least this guy has yet to call you Satan!...yes a friend actually called me Satan.

"Invisible pink unicorns" and "Screaming blue ants" Matt Slick
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28-08-2013, 07:10 AM
RE: Debate With a friend
Yo derek,when you're done debating him,can you release the full transcript?

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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28-08-2013, 06:19 PM
RE: Debate With a friend
(28-08-2013 07:10 AM)Lightvader Wrote:  Yo derek,when you're done debating him,can you release the full transcript?

Yea no problem. He hasn't yet replied to the last message I sent him which is posted on this thread. Except he sent me a message asking if I wanted to go to church with him, I haven't responded yet because I don't know how to but it started a few minitues ago so I'm in the clear I guess! Smile

You should check out http://www.debate.org, great website for practicing. I want to be ready for a sneak attack from a street preacher Smile. I'm currently debating 1 maybe 2 people on there as well as this one. If you make an account send me a friend request my username is yoyopizza (I made it when I was little, don't laughTongue).

@Chuck

I don't even know what to say. That had to suck. All I can say is I've been very lucky, since I came out over facebook, I have found three others who are agnostic/atheists. I don't see them often but man it feels good to just blaspheme with friends, lol. When you debate people like your friend, is that in person or online? Have you done both? If so, how is in person different than online? I know you can't look things up, but how much more difficult is it? I'm going camping with 5 or so religious friends this weekend and it's bound to come up!

Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. -Laurence J. Peter
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28-08-2013, 06:35 PM
RE: Debate With a friend
You should come at ray comfort's page on fb. I found many friends there. I debate,i troll,i socialize,ect. I can spend hours there

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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28-08-2013, 06:41 PM
RE: Debate With a friend
I debated a few times face to face,but i like debating online better for numbers of reasons

1.easy acces to info
2.i know most terms in english and not in dutch(this wont happen to you)
3.my friends take a really soft position. Its easier to debate against those hardcore xians
4.you can look up whatever weird thing they see as proof
5.you can link your oponent to a credible source

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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28-08-2013, 07:10 PM
RE: Debate With a friend
(28-08-2013 06:41 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  I debated a few times face to face,but i like debating online better for numbers of reasons

1.easy acces to info
2.i know most terms in english and not in dutch(this wont happen to you)
3.my friends take a really soft position. Its easier to debate against those hardcore xians
4.you can look up whatever weird thing they see as proof
5.you can link your oponent to a credible source

Yes, it does seem like it would be easier to debate online, but I'm really into debating so I want to get good at debating in person. Haha, not going to run into people speaking dutch, that would ne a problem. My friends are pretty soft too, but look at this. )from the theist im debating,"Leviticus 24:16- Whoever Blasphemes the name of the Lord shall be put to death." That was random and kinda pissed me off.

Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. -Laurence J. Peter
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