Debate about gender and orientation
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-01-2015, 05:25 PM
RE: Debate about gender and orientation
Anyone who might be interested in LGBT issues vis-à-vis religious thinking may want to peruse a thread I was involved in over at ISF (International Skeptics Forum). An apparently well educated fundamentalist LDS (Mormon) argued against same sex marriage for quite a while until he ran out of arguments. He was convinced that it would harm children adopted by gays, deprive children of a mother and father and generally felt that sexual preference while perhaps not a choice should not be cause to allow homosexual acts. Sex is for making babies, and that's it, in his view. He was convinced that atheists "choose" to abandon god as well, by the way. Somehow for him, these "choices" constitute ultimate condemnation.

The thread contains a huge amount of research and informational content, and was populated by several very eloquent posters representing pretty much all of LGBT and straight, plus currently active mainstream Mormons, former Mormons and atheists.

Homosexuality, Adoption and Gay Marriage (Split from LDS II)

This gentleman, using the name Skyrider44, attempted to counter our challenges for quite a while with logic, and was supported for a while by Janadele, another very wacky LDS fundamentalist who eventually got herself banned. But when it really came down to why the Mormons supported Prop 8 and why they cause so many young gays to become homeless, the only real answer they have is, metaphorically speaking, "god says it's icky". Never mind that it's really none of their business what anyone does in the privacy of their bedroom.

We hear the word "tolerant" a lot, but I think it's important for all of us to consider whether "tolerance" is the word we want to use when considering our attitude towards LGBT acquaintances. There is a psychometric scale of attitudes called the Riddle Scale developed by a researcher overseeing an APA task force that shows us how varied the public's response can be to different sexual preferences.

Quote:The Riddle homophobia scale was developed by Dorothy Riddle in 1973–74 while she was overseeing research for the American Psychological Association Task Force on Gays and Lesbians.[1] The scale was distributed at talks and workshops but was not formally published for a long time; it is cited in the literature either as an (unpublished) conference presentation from 1985[2] or as an article from 1994.[3] At the time it was developed, Riddle's analysis was one of the first modern classifications of attitudes towards homosexuality.[citation needed]

In that respect, the scale has served the purpose that Riddle originally had in mind: she devised the scale to explicate the continuum of attitudes toward gays and lesbians and to assess the current and desired institutional culture of an organization or a work place.

She notes that one can "tolerate" a baby crying on an airplane, but in order to fully support our friends, acquaintances and co-workers, we need an attitude more toward suport or admiration on the scale that she devised.

Quote: Repulsion: Homosexuality is seen as a crime against nature. Gays/lesbians are considered sick, crazy, immoral, sinful, wicked, etc. Anything is justified to change them: incarceration, hospitalization, behavior therapy, electroshock therapy, etc.

Pity: Represents heterosexual chauvinism. Heterosexuality is considered more mature and certainly to be preferred. It is believed that any possibility of becoming straight should be reinforced, and those who seem to be born that way should be pitied as less fortunate ("the poor dears").

Tolerance: Homosexuality is viewed as a phase of adolescent development that many people go through and most people grow out of. Thus, lesbians/gays are less mature than straights and should be treated with the protectiveness and indulgence one uses with children who are still maturing. It is believed that lesbians/gays should not be given positions of authority because they are still working through their adolescent behavior.

Acceptance: Still implies that there is something to accept; the existing climate of discrimination is ignored. Characterized by such statements as "You're not lesbian to me, you're a person!" or "What you do in bed is your own business." or "That's fine with me as long as you don't flaunt it!"

Support: People at this level may be uncomfortable themselves, but they are aware of the homophobic climate and the irrational unfairness, and work to safeguard the rights of lesbians and gays.

Admiration: It is acknowledged that being lesbian/gay in our society takes strength. People at this level are willing to truly examine their homophobic attitudes, values, and behaviors.

Appreciation: The diversity of people is considered valuable and lesbians/gays are seen as a valid part of that diversity. People on this level are willing to combat homophobia in themselves and others.

Nurturance: Assumes that gay/lesbian people are indispensable in our society. People on this level view lesbians/gays with genuine affection and delight, and are willing to be their allies and advocates.

Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie, which we ascribe to heaven. --Shakespeare
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-01-2015, 04:57 AM
RE: Debate about gender and orientation
(15-01-2015 11:51 AM)cjlr Wrote:  OP: you're mis-using the word 'gender'. In sociology it refers to a collection of expectations regarding role and behaviour. This is distinct from both biological sex and sexual orientation. You seem to be discussing orientation only...

Are gender roles social constructs?
(I would note that the strict converse - that nothing about them is socially contextual - is provably false)

My point is that it's disingenuous and intellectually dishonest to say that people are born straight / gay yet their gender is decided.

The truth is that people can and often do become gay, usually due to reasons such as having a domineering mother and a weak father.

As for lesbians, often women become lesbians due to their inability to process relationships with men in a normal way.

And bisexuals, well, even in the gay community there are many people who don't even believe there's such a thing, and that people who say they're bisexual are just confused. Me personally, I think there is such a thing but I think that out of all people who claim to be bisexual, only a tiny few actually are.

Also it's well known to anyone who has looked into it that transsexuals are more often than not confused too, and many of them later regret the sex change.

There are clear and distinct sex / gender (whatever you want to call it) identities and roles. You don't just get to choose what you identify as, you're either male or female, and if you're male there are certain characteristics that go with that, same for female.

For the vast majority, anyone who claims to be something other than what nature has given them in the form of their physical body (and corresponding brain) is confused or mentally ill. Nature doesn't play around with identities and roles. It's very clear and unambiguous what each person is meant to be and how they're meant to behave.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-01-2015, 05:30 AM
RE: Debate about gender and orientation
I've liked both guys and girls since before I even knew what sex was. If it's not even partly innate, then I must be a freak of nature.

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-01-2015, 05:39 AM
RE: Debate about gender and orientation
(17-01-2015 04:57 AM)Tony Ribbins Wrote:  As for lesbians, often women become lesbians due to their inability to process relationships with men in a normal way.

[Citation required]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Mathilda's post
17-01-2015, 05:41 AM
RE: Debate about gender and orientation
(17-01-2015 05:39 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(17-01-2015 04:57 AM)Tony Ribbins Wrote:  As for lesbians, often women become lesbians due to their inability to process relationships with men in a normal way.

[Citation required]

[Citation required for every claim in Tony Ribbins's post]
FTFY. Wink

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like One Above All's post
17-01-2015, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2015 11:20 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Debate about gender and orientation
(17-01-2015 04:57 AM)Tony Ribbins Wrote:  The truth is that people can and often do become gay, usually due to reasons such as having a domineering mother and a weak father.

As for lesbians, often women become lesbians due to their inability to process relationships with men in a normal way.

And bisexuals, well, even in the gay community there are many people who don't even believe there's such a thing, and that people who say they're bisexual are just confused. Me personally, I think there is such a thing but I think that out of all people who claim to be bisexual, only a tiny few actually are.

Also it's well known to anyone who has looked into it that transsexuals are more often than not confused too, and many of them later regret the sex change.

Buncha unsupported ingorant generalizations from the 19th Century that are purely opinion, many of which have been proven wrong by science.
Clearly you don't know (any ?) many gay people. Support your opinions with peer-reviewed SCIENCE, or STFU.

What is very clear, is that you haven't a fucking clue what your talking about.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...nd-choice/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcas...845f05fea/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_ho...rientation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296090/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138231/
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/...2000a.html
http://news.sciencemag.org/evolution/201...start-womb

What EXACTLY qualifies you to say ANYTHING about this subject ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Bucky Ball's post
17-01-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: Debate about gender and orientation
Since I've seen you returning... maybe 20th century info like the Kinsey scale shall help you get more studied understandings of how sexuality works.

[Image: KinseyScale.jpg]

I'm not sure if your view on what roles being certain or not are going to change. Maybe simply looking across cultures to see how man/woman roles are actually different in some distinct manners show they are not universal.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-01-2015, 11:19 AM
RE: Debate about gender and orientation
Wooooooow...... Blink

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-01-2015, 11:46 AM
RE: Debate about gender and orientation
(17-01-2015 10:46 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Since I've seen you returning... maybe 20th century info like the Kinsey scale shall help you get more studied understandings of how sexuality works.

[Image: KinseyScale.jpg]

I'm not sure if your view on what roles being certain or not are going to change. Maybe simply looking across cultures to see how man/woman roles are actually different in some distinct manners show they are not universal.

The exception proves the rule. Nature isn't perfect. Even DNA gets corrupted.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-01-2015, 11:49 AM
RE: Debate about gender and orientation
(17-01-2015 04:57 AM)Tony Ribbins Wrote:  My point is that it's disingenuous and intellectually dishonest to say that people are born straight / gay yet their gender is decided.

The truth is that people can and often do become gay, usually due to reasons such as having a domineering mother and a weak father.

As for lesbians, often women become lesbians due to their inability to process relationships with men in a normal way.

And bisexuals, well, even in the gay community there are many people who don't even believe there's such a thing, and that people who say they're bisexual are just confused. Me personally, I think there is such a thing but I think that out of all people who claim to be bisexual, only a tiny few actually are.

Also it's well known to anyone who has looked into it that transsexuals are more often than not confused too, and many of them later regret the sex change.

There are clear and distinct sex / gender (whatever you want to call it) identities and roles. You don't just get to choose what you identify as, you're either male or female, and if you're male there are certain characteristics that go with that, same for female.

For the vast majority, anyone who claims to be something other than what nature has given them in the form of their physical body (and corresponding brain) is confused or mentally ill. Nature doesn't play around with identities and roles. It's very clear and unambiguous what each person is meant to be and how they're meant to behave.

As far as I see it I don't give a fuck. If two men, two woman, a man and a woman, three woman one man, a man and a transexual, a woman and a transexual, etc etc. What people stick there dicks in our let enter the assholes and pussy is none of my concern. Same with gender. If a man wants to skip around in a dress with pretty pink nails looking for a boy friend and say he is female, I don't care, he can be a female now.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: