Debate me and all the shit that's piled up over the weeks.
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29-11-2013, 03:18 PM
RE: Debate me and all the shit that's piled up over the weeks.
(29-11-2013 03:15 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(29-11-2013 03:08 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Well my main response is that we all share some basic things as humans those being we live, die, and suffer. SO that's a place to start. No matter if you are a king or a beggar we all are born, we all suffer, then we all die. So it matters not if one person suffers more than another because suffering is also defined as the distress one poses on someone else. I'm typing this from a computer doubtlessly made in China where the workers suffer, and that causes me repressed suffering. All of humanity's suffering is equalized. Since God is omnibenevolent, He knows that we suffer and so must suffer himself because of it. Because of his nature, he is also responsible for all joy/compassion. Too make a long story short on that matter, all suffering and joy has already been equalized. Since it's a fact that joy conquers suffering, all the suffering in your life is ready to be replaced by joy at any moment. To do this is through careful self-evaluation, and meditation with a mantra.

And it shall remain unanswered. Thanks for trying.

I'll assume that I've stumped you. ( Banana_zorro )
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29-11-2013, 03:21 PM
RE: Debate me and all the shit that's piled up over the weeks.
(29-11-2013 03:18 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(29-11-2013 03:15 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  And it shall remain unanswered. Thanks for trying.

I'll assume that I've stumped you. ( Banana_zorro )

You know what they say about assumptions. Tongue




But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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29-11-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: Debate me and all the shit that's piled up over the weeks.
(29-11-2013 02:35 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  You were the one who used the emotion evoking picture, which I've been told is poor form by your own kind. Anyway, back on topic. Say your point so I may address it.




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29-11-2013, 03:34 PM
RE: Debate me and all the shit that's piled up over the weeks.
TTT, you make all these detailed analyses of what God *must* be like...

You put forward as evidence something like meditation...

I make an analogy:

Suppose I make an assertion that there is an invisible being that sits on my bonnet and likes to smash bugs onto my car wind-screen. It has the most fun doing this when the car is moving at high speed.

Now, as evidence for this being I put forward that when I drive at high speed, lots of bugs do get smashed, and *also* I further assert that I can connect to this being by meditating, and that I can feel its enjoyment as it skooshes bugs on the windscreen at high speed, if I am driving with my mind in a state of zen-like calm.

Can you see that this is not *sufficient* as evidence for the existence of the being. Sure, it *could* actually exist, but there's a much simpler straightforward explanation right there - the bugs simply get smashed by the moving car. And the euphoria I feel driving at high speed is a human emotion not connected to an invisibler being smashing bugs.

Now, I have two alternative explanations for the same phenomena here. One is pretty simple, the other is also pretty simple, but I am required to believe in some additional stuff *which I don't have a real reason to assume*.

That is why I don't go with the deism stuff. It's just a scaled up car-bonnet demon argument IMO.

I dunno if this is a question or argument really, just thought I'd throw it out there and see what you think. Feel free to poke holes.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-11-2013, 03:38 PM
RE: Debate me and all the shit that's piled up over the weeks.
(29-11-2013 03:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  TTT, you make all these detailed analyses of what God *must* be like...

You put forward as evidence something like meditation...

I make an analogy:

Suppose I make an assertion that there is an invisible being that sits on my bonnet and likes to smash bugs onto my car wind-screen. It has the most fun doing this when the car is moving at high speed.

Now, as evidence for this being I put forward that when I drive at high speed, lots of bugs do get smashed, and *also* I further assert that I can connect to this being by meditating, and that I can feel its enjoyment as it skooshes bugs on the windscreen at high speed, if I am driving with my mind in a state of zen-like calm.

Can you see that this is not *sufficient* as evidence for the existence of the being. Sure, it *could* actually exist, but there's a much simpler straightforward explanation right there - the bugs simply get smashed by the moving car. And the euphoria I feel driving at high speed is a human emotion not connected to an invisibler being smashing bugs.

Now, I have two alternative explanations for the same phenomena here. One is pretty simple, the other is also pretty simple, but I am required to believe in some additional stuff *which I don't have a real reason to assume*.

That is why I don't go with the deism stuff. It's just a scaled up car-bonnet demon argument IMO.

I dunno if this is a question or argument really, just thought I'd throw it out there and see what you think. Feel free to poke holes.

So your saying my evidence begs the question?

OK, so what if you had seen the bonnet attacker through the meditation and what you take from the experience enlightens you to see evidence of the bug smasher in every aspect of the car.
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29-11-2013, 03:39 PM
RE: Debate me and all the shit that's piled up over the weeks.
[Image: tumblr_luolamTzZ61qjc6xa.gif]

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29-11-2013, 03:49 PM
RE: Debate me and all the shit that's piled up over the weeks.
(29-11-2013 03:38 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(29-11-2013 03:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  Now, I have two alternative explanations for the same phenomena here. One is pretty simple, the other is also pretty simple, but I am required to believe in some additional stuff *which I don't have a real reason to assume*.

So your saying my evidence begs the question?

OK, so what if you had seen the bonnet attacker through the meditation and what you take from the experience enlightens you to see evidence of the bug smasher in every aspect of the car.
I'm saying your evidence is not *sufficient*. Begging the question would be assuming your desired outcome as part of the input used in deriving that same desired outcome.

What I'm saying is, you haven't shown that your meditation is not a result of your brain tricking you. If the only external evidence I had for the bug smasher was the smashed bugs, then the meditation might point to something, but until I rule out that my brain is not throwing up false positives, I can't conclude that the bug-smasher does exist.

I might then for example try some other experiments to test if the bug smasher is real. Suppose my meditation leads me to believe that the bug smasher likes sitting on flat surfaces. If I cover the car bonnet with spikes, maybe he won't smash bugs any more ?

Now, for shits and giggles, let's just say that this actually worked. Am I *now* allowed to conclude that the bug smasher exists ? You tell me ?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-11-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: Debate me and all the shit that's piled up over the weeks.
(29-11-2013 03:39 PM)Vosur Wrote:  [Image: tumblr_luolamTzZ61qjc6xa.gif]

Dafuq are you on about? Tongue
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29-11-2013, 03:59 PM
RE: Debate me and all the shit that's piled up over the weeks.
(29-11-2013 03:53 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Dafuq are you on about? Tongue
I am waiting for you to respond to this post. Why do you deny that you're a liar despite the fact that the aforementioned post proves it beyond a reasonable doubt?

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29-11-2013, 04:15 PM
RE: Debate me and all the shit that's piled up over the weeks.
morondog mentioned our brains throwing out false positives. I'd like to visit that thought a minute. Give this video a watch. It demonstrates how easily our minds can gravitate towards suggestion. I'd argue it's even more powerful if it's an idea that we want to believe in the first place.





But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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