Debate me!
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25-06-2014, 09:16 PM
RE: Debate me!
Hmm Consider

Okay, let's go with something more popular. Morality. My stance is that the God (Jesus) and the bible are the ultimate source of morality. We humans are vile creatures and without God, we would destroy ourselves.

"Pay attention to Me, O My people, And give ear to Me, O My nation; For a law will go forth from Me, And I will set My justice for a light of the peoples." - Isaiah 51:4

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25-06-2014, 09:21 PM
RE: Debate me!
(25-06-2014 09:16 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Hmm Consider

Okay, let's go with something more popular. Morality. My stance is that the God (Jesus) and the bible are the ultimate source of morality. We humans are vile creatures and without God, we would destroy ourselves.

"Pay attention to Me, O My people, And give ear to Me, O My nation; For a law will go forth from Me, And I will set My justice for a light of the peoples." - Isaiah 51:4

If that is the case, then wouldn't pre-biblical societies be lawless, as what is the point of law without morality? Hammurabi's Code -- clearly law -- was written in Mesopotamia 1100 years before the Bible was initially started.

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25-06-2014, 09:36 PM
RE: Debate me!
(25-06-2014 09:21 PM)TSG Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 09:16 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Hmm Consider

Okay, let's go with something more popular. Morality. My stance is that the God (Jesus) and the bible are the ultimate source of morality. We humans are vile creatures and without God, we would destroy ourselves.

"Pay attention to Me, O My people, And give ear to Me, O My nation; For a law will go forth from Me, And I will set My justice for a light of the peoples." - Isaiah 51:4

If that is the case, then wouldn't pre-biblical societies be lawless, as what is the point of law without morality? Hammurabi's Code -- clearly law -- was written in Mesopotamia 1100 years before the Bible was initially started.

Nice try, but God created the universe. He was here first, and since he is the true creator of the bible (the people that wrote it are just his chosen instruments), any other myths or legends that predate the bible are just copies of the original truth that Adam, Noah and his immediate descendants knew.


Okay, sorry for the short reply. I'm tired and going to bed. If you want what I was trying to go for then check out this AiG page. I shall continue in the morning! Good night.

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25-06-2014, 09:58 PM
RE: Debate me!
(25-06-2014 09:36 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 09:21 PM)TSG Wrote:  If that is the case, then wouldn't pre-biblical societies be lawless, as what is the point of law without morality? Hammurabi's Code -- clearly law -- was written in Mesopotamia 1100 years before the Bible was initially started.

Nice try, but God created the universe. He was here first, and since he is the true creator of the bible (the people that wrote it are just his chosen instruments), any other myths or legends that predate the bible are just copies of the original truth that Adam, Noah and his immediate descendants knew.


Okay, sorry for the short reply. I'm tired and going to bed. If you want what I was trying to go for then check out this AiG page. I shall continue in the morning! Good night.

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Original Truth, you say in a debate about morality? Have you ever read Hammurabi's Code or the Old Testament? Both are filled with archaic and barbaric caricatures of morality, be it the forced marriage of women taken prisoner during a war,* or the countless instances where capital punishment is considered the default punishment for the most mundane wrongdoings.† Moreover, both systems took the fact that their law's recipients owned slaves for granted, and wrote laws concerning them; Exodus 21, and Hammurabi's Code Nos. 16-20 just for starters. If God is the source of these laws, he is morally bankrupt.










------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Deuteronomy 21:10-14
†Practically all of Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

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26-06-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: Debate me!
(25-06-2014 09:58 PM)TSG Wrote:  be it the forced marriage of women taken prisoner during a war,*

Forced? Have you even read that passage? I do not see forced marriage anywhere. Let's a take a look at Deuteronomy 21:10-14, shall we?

Deuteronomy 21:10-12 Wrote:10 “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12 and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails."

Contrary to what you might think, after a war the woman would have nothing left. You would be rescuing her if you married her, and you are even commanded to give her time to grieve in the next passage:
Deuteronomy 21:13 Wrote:13 "And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife."

Here's the best part, if she doesn't like it and would rather try to live on her own, you are commanded to let her! See? God did think of everything:
Deuteronomy 21:14 Wrote:14 "But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her."



(25-06-2014 09:58 PM)TSG Wrote:  or the countless instances where capital punishment is considered the default punishment for the most mundane wrongdoings.†

What's the difference between then and now? We humans need strict moral teachings, otherwise anarchy would arise.

(25-06-2014 09:58 PM)TSG Wrote:  Moreover, both systems took the fact that their law's recipients owned slaves for granted, and wrote laws concerning them; Exodus 21, and Hammurabi's Code Nos. 16-20 just for starters. If God is the source of these laws, he is morally bankrupt.

God did not command anyone to take slaves, that is just part of the history that the bible talks about. He gave us free will, and it was our choice to take slaves. Why is this God's fault?

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26-06-2014, 10:08 AM
RE: Debate me!
Quote:Contrary to what you might think, after a war the woman would have nothing left. You would be rescuing her if you married her, and you are even commanded to give her time to grieve in the next passage:
Deuteronomy 21:13 Wrote:13 "And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife."

Yeah, time to grieve -- as in ONE MONTH. Have you ever lost a loved one? Or a cat? It takes more than a month to get over, especially when some soldier from a foreign land kidnaps you, and forces you to cut your hair and trim your nails. Moreover, nowhere in this group of passages is the woman given a say in the matter; the passage specifically states that, ". . .seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife. . .". It says nothing of rescuing here, it simply supports the notion that women are nothing but property for the pleasure of the man. Just think -- why isn't this action legal today?

Quote:Here's the best part, if she doesn't like it and would rather try to live on her own, you are commanded to let her! See? God did think of everything:
Deuteronomy 21:14 Wrote:14 "But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her."

It does not say, 'if she doesn't delight in thou, thou shalt let her go whither she will,' it says, 'if you no longer delight in her thou shalt let her go whither she will.' The one who wrote this passage evidently didn't care about the woman, because, as stated before, women were seen as objects specifically for the pleasure of men.


Quote:
(25-06-2014 09:58 PM)TSG Wrote:  or the countless instances where capital punishment is considered the default punishment for the most mundane wrongdoings.†

What's the difference between then and now? We humans need strict moral teachings, otherwise anarchy would arise.

Difference between then and now? Why don't we return to Deuteronomy 21: my favourite chapter:

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.



Here is one of those examples of capital punishment for a mundane misdeed; if a son (not daughter, because, as stated before, women -- and girls -- are objects) rebels against his parents, he shall be put to death. Imagine if that were done nowadays; that would be actual anarchy. Children can't exactly learn to respect their elders when they're bleeding to death on the ground with a rock stuck in their throat.

Quote:
(25-06-2014 09:58 PM)TSG Wrote:  Moreover, both systems took the fact that their law's recipients owned slaves for granted, and wrote laws concerning them; Exodus 21, and Hammurabi's Code Nos. 16-20 just for starters. If God is the source of these laws, he is morally bankrupt.

God did not command anyone to take slaves, that is just part of the history that the bible talks about. He gave us free will, and it was our choice to take slaves. Why is this God's fault?

If he did not condemn slavery in order to prevent free will, then why would he condemn murder, thievery, the consumption of pork? Why make laws at all when they might interfere with free will? Perhaps your earlier statement of anarchy may actually be the desired goal of God.

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26-06-2014, 10:21 PM
RE: Debate me!
(26-06-2014 10:08 AM)TSG Wrote:  
Quote:Contrary to what you might think, after a war the woman would have nothing left. You would be rescuing her if you married her, and you are even commanded to give her time to grieve in the next passage:
Deuteronomy 21:13 Wrote:13 "And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife."

Yeah, time to grieve -- as in ONE MONTH. Have you ever lost a loved one? Or a cat? It takes more than a month to get over, especially when some soldier from a foreign land kidnaps you, and forces you to cut your hair and trim your nails. Moreover, nowhere in this group of passages is the woman given a say in the matter; the passage specifically states that, ". . .seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife. . .". It says nothing of rescuing here, it simply supports the notion that women are nothing but property for the pleasure of the man. Just think -- why isn't this action legal today?

Lives were shorter back then, you couldn't spend years mourning loss like you can now. Plus they would be much more used to death, it would be a daily occurrence. We live a lucky life in this day in age and sheltered from these things too much.


(26-06-2014 10:08 AM)TSG Wrote:  
Quote:Here's the best part, if she doesn't like it and would rather try to live on her own, you are commanded to let her! See? God did think of everything:

It does not say, 'if she doesn't delight in thou, thou shalt let her go whither she will,' it says, 'if you no longer delight in her thou shalt let her go whither she will.' The one who wrote this passage evidently didn't care about the woman, because, as stated before, women were seen as objects specifically for the pleasure of men.

Shit, totally misread that Laugh out load
I can't bullshit my way out of this one Tongue

(26-06-2014 10:08 AM)TSG Wrote:  
Quote:What's the difference between then and now? We humans need strict moral teachings, otherwise anarchy would arise.

Difference between then and now? Why don't we return to Deuteronomy 21: my favourite chapter:

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.



Here is one of those examples of capital punishment for a mundane misdeed; if a son (not daughter, because, as stated before, women -- and girls -- are objects) rebels against his parents, he shall be put to death. Imagine if that were done nowadays; that would be actual anarchy. Children can't exactly learn to respect their elders when they're bleeding to death on the ground with a rock stuck in their throat.

We don't have to do that anymore. Rules change over time, just like we humans do. Man used to be vegetarian but later when we started to eat meat God restricted our diets so we wouldn't get sick. Too bad this is often overlooked.

(26-06-2014 10:08 AM)TSG Wrote:  
Quote:God did not command anyone to take slaves, that is just part of the history that the bible talks about. He gave us free will, and it was our choice to take slaves. Why is this God's fault?

If he did not condemn slavery in order to prevent free will, then why would he condemn murder, thievery, the consumption of pork? Why make laws at all when they might interfere with free will? Perhaps your earlier statement of anarchy may actually be the desired goal of God.

Slavery back then was different than what you typically picture today. Read more about it here, because honestly I'm too lazy to summarize it. Long day today. So sorry for the late response.

You seem very competent in a debate, why were doubting yourself in the first place?

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27-06-2014, 11:38 AM
RE: Debate me!
Quote:Lives were shorter back then, you couldn't spend years mourning loss like you can now. Plus they would be much more used to death, it would be a daily occurrence. We live a lucky life in this day in age and sheltered from these things too much.

On a battlefield, do soldiers grow "used to death"? Most of the vets I've heard of got PTSD from all of the death. Moreover, if people today can spend their whole lives mourning, why can't a kidnapped woman forced into marriage?


Quote:Shit, totally misread that Laugh out load
I can't bullshit my way out of this one Tongue








Quote:We don't have to do that anymore. Rules change over time, just like we humans do. Man used to be vegetarian but later when we started to eat meat God restricted our diets so we wouldn't get sick. Too bad this is often overlooked.

If that law -- as well as the previous one concerning forced marriage -- are no longer to be followed, how can we judge which laws are still meant for us? Should we just ignore the Old Testament? Moreover, on a biological level, humans could not have been vegetarian. The human dental and digestive systems are tailored for an omnivorous diet. Whilst it is true that vegetarians exist today, they almost always supplement with fish (which is undeniably meat) and vitamins containing nutrients absent in plants. Why would God have restricted pork when people eat pork every day, and yet do not die? This goes for his other restricted foods as well.



Quote:Slavery back then was different than what you typically picture today. Read more about it here, because honestly I'm too lazy to summarize it. Long day today. So sorry for the late response.

You seem very competent in a debate, why were doubting yourself in the first place?

Exodus 21:4:
If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

Indentured servitude? When a man loses his family, and they belong to his 'master', that's kind of missing the point of indentured servitude, isn't it? What happens to these people? Are they kept as property? Are they treated as family? The Bible chooses not to elaborate on their fate because the author clearly assumed their fate was obvious to anyone with eyes -- which it is. They are slaves. And despite it being 'different than it is today', I can think of no context wherein the owning of another human as property is acceptable. I've noticed that you've spent this whole time defending the Bible; why would one need to defend the Bible when "My stance is that the God (Jesus) and the bible are the ultimate source of morality." You'd think you'd be blowing me out of the water with groundbreaking moral arguments, and yet you stand (or sit -- I don't really know) there spewing apologetics for what should be the greatest source of morality.


Also, I've never really debated before, so needed to be sure I could do it.

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27-06-2014, 09:43 PM
RE: Debate me!
Yeah you seem fine to me, I don't see a point in continuing to bullshit. Try debating Jeremy or one of the other constant trolls. Otherwise, very nice Thumbsup

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27-06-2014, 09:47 PM
RE: Debate me!
(27-06-2014 09:43 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Yeah you seem fine to me, I don't see a point in continuing to bullshit. Try debating Jeremy or one of the other constant trolls. Otherwise, very nice Thumbsup

Thanks. How crazy is Jeremy? I haven't really noticed him much.

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