Poll: Does the United States have a problem with guns?
Yes. Guns are signficant source of social ill in the US
No. Guns are not a contributing factor to the social problems of the US
Both. Guns are an issue in the US but are both a part of the problem and part of the solution
Unsure.
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Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
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20-08-2013, 07:49 AM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2013 07:56 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
As the gun control thread seems to have found itself in a state of permanent stasis due to no replies and the gun thread crowd gets their panties in a wad if someone goes near their thread and doesn't glorify guns, maybe a fresh start is in order to see if anyone wants to debate the merits of guns and gun laws in the US.

I'll list the basics of my position.
I am not anti-gun or pro-ban.
I am for extended background checks
I am for insuring guns and gun owners
I am for mandated training of how to use the gun and when to use the gun (yearly?)
I am for mandated psych evaluations (bi-yearly?)
I am for restricting the types of guns and accessories that can be legally purchased and used (perhaps some accessories could be considered cosmetic for collectors but not legal on functional weapons?)
I am for ammunition limits and limits on magazine capacities

Evolve
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20-08-2013, 08:08 AM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
OK, let's expand and clarify positions. (Maybe you could add "Other" to the poll.)

I am not anti-gun or pro-ban.
OK.

I am for extended background checks
What is an extended background check? Is this done at the time of licensing, for every sale, both?

I am for insuring guns and gun owners
I'm not sure what you mean by insuring guns, but liability insurance for gun owners seems reasonable if one accepts that mere possession poses a significant risk.

I am for mandated training of how to use the gun and when to use the gun (yearly?)
Why more than once?

I am for mandated psych evaluations (bi-yearly?)
This needs expansion. What are the boundaries? Who sets the criteria? Who makes the call? Is it subject to appeal?

I am for restricting the types of guns and accessories that can be legally purchased and used (perhaps some accessories could be considered cosmetic for collectors but not legal on functional weapons?)
What types or accessories?

I am for ammunition limits and limits on magazine capacities
These are separate issues.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-08-2013, 08:16 AM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
I voted that you gotta have some kinda solution involving guns, but that they are a problem as far as I can see.

This is a bit of an outsider's perspective... so possibly I shoulda voted unsure...

You guys have high incidence of gun crime, or at least, spectacular bloodbaths regularly make the news.

OTOH, most of the population owns and is familiar with guns... most of them would not desire to get rid of their guns...

So ja... tough problem.
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20-08-2013, 08:27 AM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(20-08-2013 08:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  OK, let's expand and clarify positions.

I am not anti-gun or pro-ban.
OK.

I am for extended background checks
What is an extended background check? Is this done at the time of licensing, for every sale, both?

I am for insuring guns and gun owners
I'm not sure what you mean by insuring guns, but liability insurance for gun owners seems reasonable if one accepts that mere possession poses a significant risk.

I am for mandated training of how to use the gun and when to use the gun (yearly?)
Why more than once?

I am for mandated psych evaluations (bi-yearly?)
This needs expansion. What are the boundaries? Who sets the criteria? Who makes the call? Is it subject to appeal?

I am for restricting the types of guns and accessories that can be legally purchased and used (perhaps some accessories could be considered cosmetic for collectors but not legal on functional weapons?)
What types or accessories?

I am for ammunition limits and limits on magazine capacities
These are separate issues.

What is an extended background check? Is this done at the time of licensing, for every sale, both?

More than just criminal history but also medical history in the event of a diagnosis of a medical condition that impedes cognitive function. (like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, etc)

I suppose licensing. If you are required to go through the process of re-certifying yourself yearly with the training and bi-yearly with a psych evaluation, then at the time of re-issuing your license should be all that would be needed.

That would streamline the purchasing of guns too. If you have a valid and up-to-date license, then you could walk into a gun shop and purchase a gun same-day. We scan drivers licenses now and could do the same there.

I'm not sure what you mean by insuring guns, but liability insurance for gun owners seems reasonable if one accepts that mere possession poses a significant risk.

Each car you have has to have insurance. So, if you own 2 cars then you pay insurance on each. If you have 2 guns, you pay insurance on each.

Why more than once?
(context here was for training)
For any certification out there, you have to re-qualify for it after a set amount of time in order to ensure that you have kept up with the laws, regulations, and safety concerns, as well as kept up with any changes since your last exam. (medical professionals have to re-certify after a set amount of time, no?)

"I am for mandated psych evaluations (bi-yearly?)"
This needs expansion. What are the boundaries? Who sets the criteria? Who makes the call? Is it subject to appeal?

We would need someone who is an expert on mental disorders to help out there. But I would venture a guess that any disorder that cannot be effectively treated by regular therapy sessions and/or pharmaceuticals would disqualify someone.

Also, a mental health counselor would be the first person to do the screening (more of them on the ground) and presents each case to a psychiatrist. Those that pass the mental health counselor and the psychiatrists evaluation, qualify. Those that do not, go on to see a psychiatrist for a one-on-one evaluation with said psychiatrist.

Appeals can be made but issuance of license is delayed until after the appeal.

What types or accessories?
Those that do not serve to assist in the primary function of the gun (this would have to do with the insurance too. If I have a gun for home self-defense, then I would pay less in taxes for it than one that was for personal carry self-defense and each category would also have different accessories that are allowable).

So, a home self-defensive weapon could have different accessories allowed than one for hunting or carry self-defense.

I'm not completely familiar with all the accessories out there, but I imagine most scopes would be legal for hunting and home self-defense.

Flashlights for both of those too

Pistol grips for each too (I guess I would consider personal carry self-defense to only mean pistols)

Extended magazines would not be legal. Nor grenade launcher attachments. Or bayonet attachments (except for period pieces owned for collecting)

These are separate issues.
(context is ammunition limits and magazine capacity limits)

I disagree. Once again, I think these are also in part based upon what the gun is issued for. The number of bullets allowed per magazine would vary depending on its use. More for home defense, less for hunting, and less for carry defense.

No extended magazines though in any of the 3 cases.

As for limits on the amount of ammunition, this should be limits on how much one purchases at a given time. (close up the purchasing of large quantities for stock-piling online). And you would need a valid license in order to buy. This would enable tracking of how much someone buys over time. (for instance, someone who buys a lot of 30-06 ammo at the beginning of hunting season each year throws up no red flags, but someone who purchases them out of season when they do not typically do this, may)

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20-08-2013, 08:59 AM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(20-08-2013 08:27 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  These are separate issues.
(context is ammunition limits and magazine capacity limits)

I disagree. Once again, I think these are also in part based upon what the gun is issued for. The number of bullets allowed per magazine would vary depending on its use. More for home defense, less for hunting, and less for carry defense.

No extended magazines though in any of the 3 cases.

As for limits on the amount of ammunition, this should be limits on how much one purchases at a given time. (close up the purchasing of large quantities for stock-piling online). And you would need a valid license in order to buy. This would enable tracking of how much someone buys over time. (for instance, someone who buys a lot of 30-06 ammo at the beginning of hunting season each year throws up no red flags, but someone who purchases them out of season when they do not typically do this, may)

I maintain that the maintain that the ammunition capacity of the firearm and the amount of ammunition possessed are quite separate issues; I don't understand your putting them together.

As for the timing of the purchase of ammunition, you actually have it backwards.
Off-season is when the most ammunition is used. That is when a rifle is sighted in, especially if a new scope was purchased; it is when practice occurs.
Hunting requires little ammunition in comparison.

And target shooters use ammunition year round.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-08-2013, 09:25 AM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
1.) I am assuming antique weaponry is not meant to be used so no problem there
2.) Let's close the private sales (or at least make some legal note of the gun(s) passing ownership) and gun show loop holes in the law
3.) Since its been explained to me that you need a different type of gun per hunting season cant hunters just stick one hunting seasons? Or just rent the gun?
4.) Still think psych eval is in order
5.) Still think anyone under the age of eighteen should not handle a gun
6.) BACKGROUND CHECKS
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20-08-2013, 09:40 AM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(20-08-2013 08:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-08-2013 08:27 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  These are separate issues.
(context is ammunition limits and magazine capacity limits)

I disagree. Once again, I think these are also in part based upon what the gun is issued for. The number of bullets allowed per magazine would vary depending on its use. More for home defense, less for hunting, and less for carry defense.

No extended magazines though in any of the 3 cases.

As for limits on the amount of ammunition, this should be limits on how much one purchases at a given time. (close up the purchasing of large quantities for stock-piling online). And you would need a valid license in order to buy. This would enable tracking of how much someone buys over time. (for instance, someone who buys a lot of 30-06 ammo at the beginning of hunting season each year throws up no red flags, but someone who purchases them out of season when they do not typically do this, may)

I maintain that the maintain that the ammunition capacity of the firearm and the amount of ammunition possessed are quite separate issues; I don't understand your putting them together.

As for the timing of the purchase of ammunition, you actually have it backwards.
Off-season is when the most ammunition is used. That is when a rifle is sighted in, especially if a new scope was purchased; it is when practice occurs.
Hunting requires little ammunition in comparison.

And target shooters use ammunition year round.

Ammunition and guns go together like bread and peanut butter. Regulating one, means regulating the other.

My example is that buying ammunition out of character would throw a red flag, not that my example on when it's purchased must necessarily be spot on.

And target shooters wouldn't throw up any red flags by purchasing year-round either.

This would track abnormal purchasing behavior and abnormal consumption of ammunition. These types of tracking could indicate imminent snaps like that of Holmes. Couple the large purchase quantities out of the blue, along with multiple weapons purchases, and track the fact that he has been seeing a mental health professional and you get potential to intervene and prevent incident.

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20-08-2013, 01:11 PM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
The goal ought to be, to keep society safe.

It makes sense that people don't really need assault rifles unless they are going to war. For hunting maybe a 22 or a shot gun or a 308 is sufficient. It seems to me these guns don't need to be able to fire off 20 shots. If a hunter can't put their prey down in a couple of shots then maybe they are not fit to own a gun.

Mental people and those with anger issues seem unfit to own guns

Those that feel they have the right to shoot and kill a person for car theft aren't fit to own a gun.

Those that would draw their gun in pubic and fire despite having other civilians in range and in the target area are not fit to own guns.

Those that feel they are the self appointed protectors of society that wield a gun and go looking for trouble are not fit to own guns.

Certainly a gun register ought to be kept, certainly background checks ought to be made, certainly there ought to be restrictions on types of guns, certainly people using guns ought to be held accountable (shooting a drunk teenage girl for stepping onto your property is not acceptable).
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20-08-2013, 05:15 PM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
Well I can weigh in here.

I support some gun control measures such as my proposal for an Individual Purchase License for buying and selling firearms. This provides provisions for the private ownership of guns, and the Title II IPL allows the ownership of automatic weapons.

I support a major overhaul of firearm laws, including the ability of the CDC and other groups to do studies on the effects of firearms on society.

I support restrictions in the number of weapons one can buy at a single time for ITAR reasons.

I believe the Second Amendment is an individual right as universal as the right to self protection or freedom of speech or religion.

I believe that guns, when used properly by a person with practice and resolve, can be tremendous asset in a life threatening emergency.

I believe the Second Amendment was instituted as a last resort to protect the people against a tyrannical cabal in the government superseding the limits of their power and violating the constitution and the rights of the people.

I believe the the Second Amendment HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HUNTING OR SPORTING!

I believe gun ownership is a personal choice and a responsibly, if one undertakes it. I believe misuse or negligence with a firearm makes you civilly or criminally liable.

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20-08-2013, 05:25 PM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
But without guns, how will you'll have a mass shooting every 2 or 3months?
Can't have that now, it's just plain un-American!

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