Poll: Does the United States have a problem with guns?
Yes. Guns are signficant source of social ill in the US
No. Guns are not a contributing factor to the social problems of the US
Both. Guns are an issue in the US but are both a part of the problem and part of the solution
Unsure.
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Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
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27-08-2013, 10:03 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2013 10:07 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(27-08-2013 09:30 AM)Julius Wrote:  The murder rate in this country is the lowest it has been in 100 Years - that's right....100 Years! Nevertheless, the public is always inundated with "Muderers Run Wild" stories and people are too quick to believe the problem is worse just because they can see it reported on the TV.

What changed such that the murder rate came down? Was it a restriction on firearms? No. Was it a limiting of magazine capacity? No. Was it the mandating of firearm training courses? No. Was it the restrictions on Assault weapons and machine guns? No.

Nevertheless, the murder rate has continued to fall.

Maybe it's a cultural thing...huh?

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/20...id=2879174

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Indeed, the decline in murder rate is real and cultural. It is also global.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-calif...ked-2013-8

California is not seeing the same drop, it is seeing a higher than average drop that is correlated with gun control measures. So, it would be incorrect to say that gun control has had no impact.

Australia is another good example, they have seen violent crime drop and suicide rates drop since the implementation of new gun control measures in the late 90's. Even better than that though, is that they have not had a single mass shooting in the 10+ years since, whereas they were averaging something on the order of 1 every 2 years prior.

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27-08-2013, 10:43 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2013 10:51 AM by Julius.)
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
Quote:Indeed, the decline in murder rate is real and cultural. It is also global.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-calif...ked-2013-8

California is not seeing the same drop, it is seeing a higher than average drop that is correlated with gun control measures. So, it would be incorrect to say that gun control has had no impact.

Well...let's throw a monkey wrench in those statistics.

Yeah...but Texas went from a homicide rate of 15.5/100k in 1991 to 4.4/100k in 2011 while California went from a Homicide rate of 13.1/100K in 1993 to 4.8/100K in 2011. During this time, gun laws in Texas were loosened and Concealed Carry (with permit) and Carry in Car (without permit) became legal. Also, Texas did not put anymore restrictions on guns.

Now...does this mean..."More and more powerful guns = more safety?" I doubt it.

Like I said, it's a probably cultural change.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm
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27-08-2013, 11:05 AM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(27-08-2013 10:43 AM)Julius Wrote:  
Quote:Indeed, the decline in murder rate is real and cultural. It is also global.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-calif...ked-2013-8

California is not seeing the same drop, it is seeing a higher than average drop that is correlated with gun control measures. So, it would be incorrect to say that gun control has had no impact.

Well...let's throw a monkey wrench in those statistics.

Yeah...but Texas went from a homicide rate of 15.5/100k in 1991 to 4.4/100k in 2011 while California went from a Homicide rate of 13.1/100K in 1993 to 4.8/100K in 2011. During this time, gun laws in Texas were loosened and Concealed Carry (with permit) and Carry in Car (without permit) became legal. Also, Texas did not put anymore restrictions on guns.

Now...does this mean..."More and more powerful guns = more safety?" I doubt it.

Like I said, it's a probably cultural change.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm

As I said, the implications are that it is more closely linked with cultural change, but it shouldn't be ignored that gun laws appear to have had positive effects in some areas (including at the US state level and international level).

The article I linked to is specifically about gun violence. I haven't come across number for Texas in that regard, but I did just find a nifty site for looking at crime statistics and comparing states. I'll post what I find if it is interesting.

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27-08-2013, 11:37 AM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
There is a lot of data to slug through and it is really neat, but you can find charts showing what I just spent the last half-hour on (which is a comparison of violent crime rate by state, I was hoping to limit it to just guns but the database doesn't break it down that way http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/...eCrime.cfm ) Still cool though.


This is an article referred to in the one I posted.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/c...r-the-gun/

They have specified guns specifically for their crime statistics.

The top ten states with the highest levels of gun violence were

1 Louisiana
2 Alaska
3 Alabama
4 Arizona
5 Mississippi
6 South Carolina
7 New Mexico
8 Missouri
9 Arkansas
10 Georgia

8 of the top 10 are in the top 25 states with the weakest gun laws. So, there is a correlation that would be higher than expected if random. There are other potential correlations too. I think several of these are not growing economies, and at least a few of them are among the worst offenders in education.

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27-08-2013, 11:41 AM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
It is interesting to note that the pro-gun (typically conservative side) side can't use their favorite example of Illinois but the pro-regulation side can't cite Texas as being in the top 10 either.

There may also be a correlation with population growth. Meaning that states with higher than average population growth (like California or Texas) would be expected to see a decline in the rate of gun crimes. Kind of a washing-out of the signal if you will. If that is the case, then a state like Illinois that has (in at least Chicago) heavy firearms restrictions and has not seen precipitous growth in the last 60 years, should be expected to be on this list if the firearms restrictions play no discernible role. This is where some of the other factors could play in, but with the 8 in the top 10 being the weakest gun laws states, that is the one expected to correlate most strongly.

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27-08-2013, 01:24 PM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(27-08-2013 11:41 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It is interesting to note that the pro-gun (typically conservative side) side can't use their favorite example of Illinois but the pro-regulation side can't cite Texas as being in the top 10 either.

There may also be a correlation with population growth. Meaning that states with higher than average population growth (like California or Texas) would be expected to see a decline in the rate of gun crimes. Kind of a washing-out of the signal if you will. If that is the case, then a state like Illinois that has (in at least Chicago) heavy firearms restrictions and has not seen precipitous growth in the last 60 years, should be expected to be on this list if the firearms restrictions play no discernible role. This is where some of the other factors could play in, but with the 8 in the top 10 being the weakest gun laws states, that is the one expected to correlate most strongly.

I think you are trying too hard.
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27-08-2013, 03:33 PM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(27-08-2013 11:37 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There is a lot of data to slug through and it is really neat, but you can find charts showing what I just spent the last half-hour on (which is a comparison of violent crime rate by state, I was hoping to limit it to just guns but the database doesn't break it down that way http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/...eCrime.cfm ) Still cool though.


This is an article referred to in the one I posted.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/c...r-the-gun/

They have specified guns specifically for their crime statistics.

The top ten states with the highest levels of gun violence were

1 Louisiana
2 Alaska
3 Alabama
4 Arizona
5 Mississippi
6 South Carolina
7 New Mexico
8 Missouri
9 Arkansas
10 Georgia

8 of the top 10 are in the top 25 states with the weakest gun laws. So, there is a correlation that would be higher than expected if random. There are other potential correlations too. I think several of these are not growing economies, and at least a few of them are among the worst offenders in education.

Good work. I would suggest adding social services to the mix.
I suspect that the combination of poor education and poor social services has a strong correlation to gun violence.

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28-08-2013, 07:54 AM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(27-08-2013 11:37 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There is a lot of data to slug through and it is really neat, but you can find charts showing what I just spent the last half-hour on (which is a comparison of violent crime rate by state, I was hoping to limit it to just guns but the database doesn't break it down that way http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/...eCrime.cfm ) Still cool though.


This is an article referred to in the one I posted.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/c...r-the-gun/

They have specified guns specifically for their crime statistics.

The top ten states with the highest levels of gun violence were

1 Louisiana
2 Alaska
3 Alabama
4 Arizona
5 Mississippi
6 South Carolina
7 New Mexico
8 Missouri
9 Arkansas
10 Georgia

8 of the top 10 are in the top 25 states with the weakest gun laws. So, there is a correlation that would be higher than expected if random. There are other potential correlations too. I think several of these are not growing economies, and at least a few of them are among the worst offenders in education.

So what?

Regardless of what you have said, the murder rate in this country is at a 100-year low and still falling, and there are more guns than ever.

Repeat: Murder Rate is at a 100-year Low.

And...the Murder Rate is still on a falling trend.

So...what are you so worried about?
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28-08-2013, 07:58 AM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(28-08-2013 07:54 AM)Julius Wrote:  So what?

Regardless of what you have said, the murder rate in this country is at a 100-year low and still falling, and there are more guns than ever.

Repeat: Murder Rate is at a 100-year Low.

Right.

Doesn't correlate well with gun ownership/availability. (and murder rate with gun count is a terrible comparison anyway)

So there is some other reason for it to be substantially higher in the U.S.A than in similarly developed countries.

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28-08-2013, 08:39 AM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(28-08-2013 07:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-08-2013 07:54 AM)Julius Wrote:  So what?

Regardless of what you have said, the murder rate in this country is at a 100-year low and still falling, and there are more guns than ever.

Repeat: Murder Rate is at a 100-year Low.

Right.

Doesn't correlate well with gun ownership/availability. (and murder rate with gun count is a terrible comparison anyway)

So there is some other reason for it to be substantially higher in the U.S.A than in similarly developed countries.

The United States is a culture which worships violence. Look at our movies. Our sports...like Football. And consider at our favorite national pastime....War.

When I was a kid, we all thought we'd grow up, join the Army, and shoot some brown people before we went to college. I swear. I mean, when I was a kid, we were fighting a war against a bunch of peasents who wanted nothing more than an extra bowl of rice per day - but we sure slaughtered those little, yellow motherfuckers, didn't we? I mean, how dare those godless heathens want more food for their kids!

Yeah...this is the country I grew up in. Is it no wonder why it became so violent?

However, the people in the US are slowly starting to break the spell of violence - especially the younger generation. So...things are getting better.
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