Poll: Does the United States have a problem with guns?
Yes. Guns are signficant source of social ill in the US
No. Guns are not a contributing factor to the social problems of the US
Both. Guns are an issue in the US but are both a part of the problem and part of the solution
Unsure.
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Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
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20-08-2013, 07:39 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2013 07:44 PM by PoolBoyG.)
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(20-08-2013 07:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-08-2013 07:03 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  So...once in 65 years. I'm an old fuck and even I wasn't born then.

Time to let it go.


This nonsense is not about militias. It is about the gun merchants stirring up people to think they need guns to "protect" themselves. The NRA is about money.

And you don't have fire insurance because you've never had a fire in your house, right?

Not if the fire insurance itself burns down tens of thousands of homes each year Dodgy

Note to all the wannabe Road Warriors, and Wolverines! Don't turn the country into a third world armed war zone. VOTE, instead of handing out guns to the paranoid who murder people because they wear hoodies. Were they the advance vanguard to the "Government" takeover?

You see corruption? You DON'T step in tune to weapons manufactures and lobbyists and buy ammunition until it's coming out of your ass, and proliferate firearms. You vote and PARTICIPATE in society. "B-but my vote doesn't matter, i'm lazy." Yeah, yeah and your little rifle kit will do swimmingly against the Military and mercenary organizations. Who do you think comprises these millions of people? You and your neighbours. This isn't some faceless monolith.
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20-08-2013, 07:40 PM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(20-08-2013 07:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't agree. Do you really think that if it came to that the armed forces would not fragment? Consider the situation and events that would have led to it.

Of course they would! But then it's not civilians vs armed forces. It's regime vs defectors. And obviously this wouldn't happen in an international political vacuum either...

But no, civilian arms are going to do diddly and squat in the grand scheme then. Consider Libya, Syria...

(20-08-2013 07:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  Is the government and military in danger from thousands or even tens of thousands of armed civilians? No, of course not.

But that's not what the thread is about.

No, it really isn't Tongue. But Carlo did sort of bring it up.

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20-08-2013, 07:43 PM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(20-08-2013 07:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(20-08-2013 07:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't agree. Do you really think that if it came to that the armed forces would not fragment? Consider the situation and events that would have led to it.

Of course they would! But then it's not civilians vs armed forces. It's regime vs defectors. And obviously this wouldn't happen in an international political vacuum either...

But no, civilian arms are going to do diddly and squat in the grand scheme then. Consider Libya, Syria...

(20-08-2013 07:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  Is the government and military in danger from thousands or even tens of thousands of armed civilians? No, of course not.

But that's not what the thread is about.

No, it really isn't Tongue. But Carlo did sort of bring it up.

However, the existence of the Second Amendment and its interpretation do inform the gun control discussion.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-08-2013, 07:55 PM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(20-08-2013 07:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  However, the existence of the Second Amendment and its interpretation do inform the gun control discussion.

Yes, absolutely.

But guns are just a thing that exists. Cars are also a thing that exists and that are very dangerous and highly regulated. But there's of course no car-ownership amendment Tongue.

It's a matter of opinion, but in mine, most guns are clearly fine. They are pretty much always available to those who want to misuse them regardless, but as to that why, it's cultural, and a very different matter.

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20-08-2013, 07:55 PM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(20-08-2013 06:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(20-08-2013 06:43 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Number 1) the response is absolutely stupid, as it's a distraction from the real issues and 2) the Militia was used as late as 1948 to put down a corrupt sheriff in Athens, TN.
i think the question is valid.
Also in today's times, with the American army able to take out the worlds 3rd largest army in a matter of days, do people really think untrained, uncoordinated civilians stand to put up much resistance?

If you have the US military engaged in combat operations against the citizens of the United States on US soil, by definition, you no longer HAVE a United States. Those in power have become drunk with it and are flagrantly and arrogantly exceeding their constitutional bounds and should be removed at all costs.

I might also caution you that the Taliban, a third world political and military power has matched all the US could throw at it, stripe for stripe using only small arms and explosives. A well motivated and well armed insurrection can stand up to a regulated military and make them pay dearly for every inch of ground they take.

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20-08-2013, 07:59 PM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(20-08-2013 06:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(20-08-2013 06:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  i think the question is valid.
Also in today's times, with the American army able to take out the worlds 3rd largest army in a matter of days, do people really think untrained, uncoordinated civilians stand to put up much resistance?

The point was to save money on military procurement (if people bring their own guns the army doesn't have to buy them). Well, that and killin' injuns.

To suggest civilians have ever stood a chance against an actual regular military - well. That might make for good feels but it's even less true now than it ever has been.

No the Second Amendment was written to provide a check against a power drunk government. It was written not ten years after we fought a war of independence against a power drunk tyrant and could not have succeeded without the help of local militias eg Ethan Allen and the Green Mountain Boys, Francis 'Swamp Fox' Macon, etc.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

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20-08-2013, 08:31 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2013 08:36 PM by PoolBoyG.)
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
(20-08-2013 07:55 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  I might also caution you that the Taliban, a third world political and military power has matched all the US could throw at it, stripe for stripe using only small arms and explosives. A well motivated and well armed insurrection can stand up to a regulated military and make them pay dearly for every inch of ground they take.

[Image: taliban-1.jpg]
Behold, the Road Warriors fantasy and best case scenario, and definition of winning Drinking Beverage

Stone age religious zealots, and people who had entire neighbourhoods demolished by drones piloted hundreds of miles away... in a "war" that majority of people have forgotten and don't care about. A destination for kids looking to pay off loans.

The deep irony being that the beliefs of these right wing nuts within our own countries have done more harm - has impoverished and killed more people (domestic and abroad) - than any of these foreign boogey men.

Please, please, PLEASE DON'T USE THE TALIBAN AND AFGHANISTAN AS YOUR INSPIRATION AND GOAL.
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20-08-2013, 08:57 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2013 09:02 PM by PoolBoyG.)
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
My immediate prefered stance on firearms and firearms proliferation:

1. Police cannot carry firearms. Must rely on non lethal force.
2. SWAT teams (when police have failed) are allowed to use firearms. Constant training, etc.
3. Military are prohibited from carrying functional and loaded weapons beyond designated bases and training grounds (unless martial law. Got to watch out for those scheming Chinese and homegrown Al Qaeda Dodgy ).

Each instance of public officials using or carrying firearms in public will be HEAVILY AND STRICTLY REVIEWED and be open to the public. These aren't toys, and will not be treated lightly.

4. Civilians in special cases are allowed firearms. These include:
a. living in secluded regions. Only a single handgun.
b. hunting as primary source of sustenance or income. Only a single action rifle.
c. recreational safe areas (target practice, throw grenades, or just run around like rambo). Allowed pretty much any weapon that the grounds can handle. These weapons are NEVER allowed to be used or carried off grounds. So go nuts... Drinking Beverage

Remember, the goal is to LIMIT weapons proliferation.
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20-08-2013, 09:43 PM
RE: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
I voted "unsure" because I don't like any of the choices.

My basic stance is that guns are great, but not everyone should have them.
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21-08-2013, 05:21 AM
Re: Debate the merits of guns in America (poll added)
It didn't take long for the excuse of killing cops and soldiers to come out. If politicians want to take your weapons away (name one president in US history, one serious presidential candidate, one senator, or one congteasman), they won't be doing it personally.

So, when you talk about this nonsense about needing to take on corrupt politicians and/or the collapse of America, just remember that you are quite literally saying that you are prepared to kill members of the armed forces, national guard, state police, federal police, FBI, homeland security, ATF, etc, etc.

We don't have militias anymore, we have plenty of security as is.

And this whole fantasy still negates the fact that no one is taking away your guns or getting rid of your constitutional rights. It's a strawman at best.

Is this place still a shithole run by a dumbass calvinist?
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