Debates with father causing anxiety
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22-09-2016, 07:20 AM
RE: Debates with father causing anxiety
I would consider riding it out until you leave home.

I do not mind philosophical debates for fun. My brother and I, both independent thinkers, can “debate” religion, evolution, creation, abortion, unions, corporate hegemony and anarchy. If you can name it, we have talked about it at length.

You are trying to debate someone who has a strong emotional connection to the Catholic Church. I could try to debate my Catholic wife’s pastor about the deity of Christ. No way in Hell. There is no need for you to refute your father’s belief in the supernatural. It cannot be done. I have no interest is refuting my sisters’ belief that their psychics are helping them.

I have some thoughts (vulgar ones) about a philosopher throwing out the inability to traverse an infinite, infinite regress and first cause while attempting to justify his Catholic faith.

Simply say that you are skeptical of the supernatural realm and leave it at that. If your father attempts to pull you into another philosophical debate, which you will never win, stay logical and unemotional. Just nod your head and say “Cool”. Your skepticism is correct, but there is no need to convince your father.

You could repeat the lyrics from Jesus Christ Superstar.

Why did you choose such a backward time; And such a strange land?
I only want to know.

It is a damn good question. And you do not have to traverse a damn thing.
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22-09-2016, 07:27 AM
RE: Debates with father causing anxiety
(22-09-2016 07:10 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Either you are living in the past and have zero situational awareness or you intended to be derogatory. Which one is it?

Not sure why you imagine anything I said to Erin, would be derogatory.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-09-2016, 07:40 AM
RE: Debates with father causing anxiety
(22-09-2016 07:10 AM)ErinRH2342 Wrote:  To some extent, yeah, because if theists are right that's what I am. Messed up. Which isn't what I really think I mean, I'm cool with who I am now outside of when I'm having an anxiety attack, but it adds a bit of nervousness that's for sure. Whenever I do get around to telling him he'll have an issue with my "lifestyle" but overall based on the probing I've done in the past he and my mom will most likely look at me pityingly/express that everyone has their crosses to bear and urge me not to be biased because of the "sinful" life I desire. I doubt it'll go further than disappointment and them questioning my motivations for becoming an atheist in the first place. I'm not extremely worried about that in itself, they've expressed outrage in the past over parents shunning their queer kids. They don't consider that "Christian".

I guess it's not too bad then. He might not be entirely approving of your beliefs, or life, but at least your parents would be accepting of it, in the end. Maybe in due time, they'll come around completely. Perhaps these debates are his means of him becoming accustom to all this. Perhaps you can see it as more for his sake than yours.

But from the sound of it, it seems you'll be okay.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-09-2016, 07:40 AM
RE: Debates with father causing anxiety
(22-09-2016 07:27 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-09-2016 07:10 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Either you are living in the past and have zero situational awareness or you intended to be derogatory. Which one is it?

Not sure why you imagine anything I said to Erin, would be derogatory.

Of course not, your situational awareness is zero.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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22-09-2016, 07:46 AM
RE: Debates with father causing anxiety
(22-09-2016 07:40 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(22-09-2016 07:27 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Not sure why you imagine anything I said to Erin, would be derogatory.

Of course not, your situational awareness is zero.

Maybe, though I'm not too sure what you mean by that here, so perhaps you can elaborate.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-09-2016, 08:07 AM
RE: Debates with father causing anxiety
(22-09-2016 07:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-09-2016 07:40 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Of course not, your situational awareness is zero.

Maybe, though I'm not too sure what you mean by that here, so perhaps you can elaborate.

I think what Full Circle is getting at is that it's unrealistic to expect strong Catholics to accept something directly contrary to their doctrine. I would agree, and once again say that I'm lucky enough to have parents who will be, if not supportive, at least not unfriendly about it. So many queer kids have to be afraid of being kicked out/disowned and that's not a concern for me.

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22-09-2016, 08:16 AM
RE: Debates with father causing anxiety
(22-09-2016 06:20 AM)ErinRH2342 Wrote:  "In absence of positive proof, it's logical to accept your prior belief" he would say.

If it isn't logical to accept a new belief without positive proof then it isn't logical to retain a prior belief without positive proof. The argument that it makes sense to believe until it is proven wrong is just nonsense. It makes sense to believe when it is demonstrated to be true.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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22-09-2016, 08:19 AM
RE: Debates with father causing anxiety
(22-09-2016 08:16 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(22-09-2016 06:20 AM)ErinRH2342 Wrote:  "In absence of positive proof, it's logical to accept your prior belief" he would say.

If it isn't logical to accept a new belief without positive proof then it isn't logical to retain a prior belief without positive proof. The argument that it makes sense to believe until it is proven wrong is just nonsense. It makes sense to believe when it is demonstrated to be true.

I like that. It seems intellectually dishonest to continue behaving as if I still have positive proof for a position when I in fact do not.

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22-09-2016, 08:55 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2016 09:13 AM by Loom.)
RE: Debates with father causing anxiety
I was once in the same boat, kinda. My parents are no philosophers and not even very strong debaters, but they were on my case like a hawk after they learned I no longer believed.

For a time I debated back, trying to defend my lack of belief, but it was unfair, 2v1 and I didn't have near their biblical knowledge.

Like you it caused me a great deal of anxiety, and even triggered panic attacks (most likely from adrenaline).

So I started not engaging in their 'talks', told them they were making me uncomfortable and walked away. In the meantime I started watching The Atheist Experience, to garner some knowledge on the arguments of both sides. I looked into TalkOrigins.org to brush up on some science. I started lurking on atheist forums such as this one. Goodwithoutgod's resource thread was especially helpful.

Finally, I joined here to vent and seek pointers.

My parents have finally backed off, for the most part, now that I could defend myself better and they realize it makes me uncomfortable (we still debate sometimes, still causes anxiety, but I've been able to throw them through a loop).

I think you did the right thing coming here. Definetly check out goodwithoutgod's respurce thread and watch The Atheist Experience (they have a few episodes on the Kalam argument) so you can better equip yourself if your father pushes a debate. And make sure he knows that he's making you uncomfortable. It's not fair for an experienced adult like him to go off on a kid who's only just figuring things out.

Ignorance is not to be ignored.

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22-09-2016, 09:02 AM
RE: Debates with father causing anxiety
(22-09-2016 08:55 AM)Loom Wrote:  It's not fair for an experienced adult like him to go off on a kid who's only just figuring things out.

You're darn right!

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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