Debunking miracles
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18-06-2014, 04:14 PM
RE: Debunking miracles
A post elsewhere in the forums in which DLJ identifies another possible miracle:

(18-06-2014 09:39 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Anything that any of the supposedly 'holy' books got right was by sheer accident. ...

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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18-06-2014, 04:51 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2014 05:33 PM by Charis.)
RE: Debunking miracles
I'm going to mention that, by fundamental theology, there are the "perfect will of God," the "permissive will of God," and "God's providence." The specific names vary.

The (non-falsifiable) idea here is that God moves through natural means to bring about certain events that would otherwise not have happened. This would be the "God's providence" part. It's also likely that the OP's family would have been thinking that this was going on with the glasses (and obviously not with the starving kids all over Africa or the grossly abused women in certain cultures).

The "perfect will of God" is what God ideally wants (supposedly for everyone to go to Heaven, etc.). Supposedly, God ideally didn't want to order/condone the rape of women in the Old Testament.

The "permissive will of God" is what God knowingly allows... so it's within his will to allow something to happen for his own reasons. Think about the story of Job. Or God permitting men to rape women.

Just letting you know what Walker MIGHT come in here with.

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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18-06-2014, 06:05 PM
RE: Debunking miracles
(18-06-2014 04:51 PM)Charis Wrote:  Just letting you know what Walker MIGHT come in here with.

We need a troll-free zone around here.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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18-06-2014, 11:13 PM
RE: Debunking miracles
(16-06-2014 11:39 AM)CleverUsername Wrote:  We're all probably aware that theists use the word "miracle" way too often, in situations that are not in any way miracles. More specifically, they'll label unlikely, but still entirely possible events as miracles.

What are some good ways to combat this line of thinking?


I recently got into a "debate" with some family members over whether or not my brother finding his glasses after dropping them in the ocean at the beach was a miracle. It pretty much just went in circles. "It was a miracle!" "It was unlikely." "It was a miracle!" "It was unlikely!" "It had a one in thousand chance, it was a miracle!" I'd like to be prepared in-case this type of "debate" comes up again.

Ask them if he was a Hindu or a Buddhist would it still be a miracle or just an unlikely event?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.
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18-06-2014, 11:46 PM
RE: Debunking miracles
(18-06-2014 11:13 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(16-06-2014 11:39 AM)CleverUsername Wrote:  We're all probably aware that theists use the word "miracle" way too often, in situations that are not in any way miracles. More specifically, they'll label unlikely, but still entirely possible events as miracles.

What are some good ways to combat this line of thinking?


I recently got into a "debate" with some family members over whether or not my brother finding his glasses after dropping them in the ocean at the beach was a miracle. It pretty much just went in circles. "It was a miracle!" "It was unlikely." "It was a miracle!" "It was unlikely!" "It had a one in thousand chance, it was a miracle!" I'd like to be prepared in-case this type of "debate" comes up again.

Ask them if he was a Hindu or a Buddhist would it still be a miracle or just an unlikely event?

That's it.

I've yet to see a miracle that didn't involve hoop jumping on the part of the person making claim.

It's often useless to argue.

The sun rises in the West and the bird shits on the coffeetable.


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19-06-2014, 07:39 PM
RE: Debunking miracles
(18-06-2014 03:46 PM)Charis Wrote:  A one-in-a-thousand chance.

First off, how did your family come up with these odds?


(18-06-2014 03:53 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  "it had a thousand to one chance"?

Living on a planet where million to one chances happen 295 times a day, and they think a thousand to one chance is even remotely significant?

The "One in a thousand" thing was most likely them just tossing out the first thing that means unlikely that came to their heads.
Quote: What factors did they take into consideration? As was mentioned previously, what do they know of tides? What was the time lapse between him dropping his glasses and then finding them? How far apart were these two locations? Does the last location jive with the strength and direction of the tide at the time and the mass/surface area of the glasses?

Probably none, probably not much, maybe ten minutes, I don't know, and most likely.

This was like two years ago and I don't remember it very well. Confused


And now that I think about it, I probably should have asked them why God couldn't just keep them on his head to begin with. Dang. Facepalm
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19-06-2014, 08:18 PM
RE: Debunking miracles
I almost lost a friend over miracles. (Be careful)

Claim: They felt Jesus after prayer and then their 6 year old daughter had no sign of the cancer that was "supposedly" terminal.
Kid was previously in and out of hospital several times for treatment, doctors could not believe it and called her the miracle child.

This was their strongest argument for proof of god.

Show me the medical records that show the type of cancer
"Its at the hospital, I could get it." They say.

If its true then its the day the earth stood still news worthy, why was it not in every newspaper around the world.
"Miracles from prayer happen all the time its not big a deal"

Response: so you've got medical records and doctors you can get to testify to prove the only known supernatural cure of cancer, that to most people including millions of agnostics and atheists would be enough proof of god and they could then find Jesus and be saved.
You have the evidence people are looking for to help them believe, yet you choose to ignore them to damnation in hell.
"Its for them to find god themselves"
Did Jesus tell you that......
"I'm leaving" , ,,,,, still waiting for some medical evidence of any cancer at all.


In hind sight I should not have implied their kid was not specially chosen by Jesus for cancer curing.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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19-06-2014, 08:35 PM
RE: Debunking miracles
(19-06-2014 08:18 PM)sporehux Wrote:  In hind sight I should not have implied their kid was not specially chosen by Jesus for cancer curing.

You could have, however, asked what it was about their child that made Jesus choose them instead of the thousands of other poor children dying from cancer all of the time. Consider

Facebook post likes perhaps? Angel

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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19-06-2014, 11:02 PM
RE: Debunking miracles
(17-06-2014 02:09 PM)jockmcdock Wrote:  
(16-06-2014 12:57 PM)kim Wrote:  [Image: neiltides.jpg]

I was recently re-watching the "debate" between O'Reilly and Dave Silverman (American Atheists) from 2011 (roughly) in which BO'R used his line "tide comes in...". Unfortunately, Dave couldn't correct him - he didn't have the requisite knowledge. But sometimes there are other arguments you can use. If you go into any fishing gear supplier/ boat seller/ aquatic gear supplier in Australia, you can buy tide books which will tell you when high and low tide will occur at a specific location and how high and low these will be. I can't for the life of me imagine it would be any different in the US. And of course, the Navy and the Coast Guard would be interested in such information.

I think Dave was simply flabbergasted that BOR pulled that preposterous shit out of his ass. It was, like, Fail Overload for him, I reckon. So wrong it's Not Even Wrong.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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19-06-2014, 11:08 PM
RE: Debunking miracles
(16-06-2014 11:39 AM)CleverUsername Wrote:  We're all probably aware that theists use the word "miracle" way too often, in situations that are not in any way miracles. More specifically, they'll label unlikely, but still entirely possible events as miracles.

What are some good ways to combat this line of thinking?


I recently got into a "debate" with some family members over whether or not my brother finding his glasses after dropping them in the ocean at the beach was a miracle. It pretty much just went in circles. "It was a miracle!" "It was unlikely." "It was a miracle!" "It was unlikely!" "It had a one in thousand chance, it was a miracle!" I'd like to be prepared in-case this type of "debate" comes up again.

From raising the dead and parting seas to finding some glasses.


Yeah his miracles are lacking these days.

The Out Crowd.
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