Debunking the Free Market
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29-11-2011, 04:05 PM
RE: Debunking the Free Market
(29-11-2011 03:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  A very real problem of the unregulated free market is that there are no protections.

The less-regulated market of the past gave us massive pollution, strike-breaking goons, sweat shops, child labor, and so on.

Who made businesses and the market our new gods?

That's exactly the definition my mind derives. "Free market" means the corpocracy is free to give it to us up the backside. Tongue

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05-12-2011, 04:05 PM
RE: Debunking the Free Market
Ohh I forgot about the credit card scams and the cost of education/healthcare in the US. All those things serve to do is make debt slaves of the poor in the US.

Health care and education should be Free.
Credit card need to have their interests rates slashed, and they need to be highly regulated. Atm, you can buy an item, pay the minimum payments and easily pay 3-4 times what the original costs was. The whole thing is a giant scam! You would be better off to go to the deepest darkest alley and find a loan shark.
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10-12-2011, 08:31 PM
RE: Debunking the Free Market
I'm going to try to summarize my point of view on all of this ...

I think that many people misconstrue what a true free market is about, and that leads to people to attack certain ideas or actions that are blamed on a free market but, in fact, have nothing to do with a free market.

A free market is not about assigning a monetary value to everything. It's not about corporations or labor unions getting special government-granted privileges to use against each other. It's not about government backing up businesses no matter what they do. It's not about individuals, groups or businesses being able to do whatever they want.

A free market is all about consent.

It is about all persons who are involved with a transaction / interaction / etc. consenting to everything that is involved in that transaction. It is also about protecting those voluntary interactions between individuals, groups and businesses.

In a free market, if you damage or take my property and I have not consented to that action, it is a civil (or perhaps criminal) violation of my rights. That's true whether you run your car over my lawn, or steal the trade secrets of my company, or dump your toxic waste and contaminate my water supply. All of these are violations of my property rights.

A free market doesn't mean "no government action in the marketplace." A government must protect property rights to secure a free market. If it doesn't, then thugs, crooks, scam artists, etc. will rule the marketplace.

Historically in the United States, we've had governments that have intervened on the side of business owners against their employees, and we've also had governments that have intervened on the side of employees against business owners. Neither of these is proper for a free market. A free market would punish those who use physical force against others and would protect people's right to their justly acquired property.

You say "health care and education should be free" ... how? Any product or service that exists didn't magically come into existence. Someone created it or provided it. If you say "health care should be free" then what you're saying is "some people should be forced to provide health care services to others."

Why should some people have the right to force other people to do things for them?
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10-12-2011, 09:05 PM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2011 10:40 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Debunking the Free Market
(29-11-2011 03:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  A very real problem of the unregulated free market is that there are no protections.

The less-regulated market of the past gave us massive pollution, strike-breaking goons, sweat shops, child labor, and so on.

I don't even bother to attack arguments prima facie anymore. I'm not a fan of debating on their terms, I like to go straight for their knees. Adam Smith's laissez-faire theory of capitalism presupposes an "invisible hand" that only works if all participants act rationally. That is every bit as laughable as promising me a postmortem preservation of identity.

(29-11-2011 03:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  Who made businesses and the market our new gods?

It does smell awfully familiar doesn't it?

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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11-12-2011, 05:16 AM
 
RE: Debunking the Free Market
A true free market isn't possible, at least in how most businesses and government officials view it, a true free market has no corporations, no government influencing the market (though it doesn't require there to be no government), and no regulations save contracts (which libertarians hate to admit is a form of regulation between two or more parties). I don't believe in the free market any more, then again I don't believe in monetary systems. Shy
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11-12-2011, 12:01 PM
RE: Debunking the Free Market
I don't believe in a free market anymore. In a perfect world without greed this system might be a champ. Unfortunately greed takes over. I hear it over and over from all kinds of people, "Why should I have to pay for health care for someone else." Well this is just another form of greed.

We live in a society that has not felt the direct effects of not helping each other in a long time. If a smaller community was the template that statement would be more of an impact on the individuals.

A complete free market will fail no matter how good it looks. In times of natural disasters the free market takes advantage of struggling people by over charging (gas prices, water, housing, food...). This is where regulations come in to play. I love when everyone is logical about religious things but seem to become impossibly irrational about this. Again this is driven by greed (aka - survival mode).

A complete socialistic way of life (socialism as we know it) would take care of everyone but eventually lead to issues. I haven't had the opportunity to see all the down falls of socialism since I live in capitalism with minor socialism.

Basically It can't just be capitalism or just be socialism. It has to be something else. A major combination of both. The greedy will complain because they don't want their efforts to help anyone else. The less fortunate will complain because the greedy are taking everything.

The people getting free stuff should be required to work somewhere (so it wouldn't be free after all). Say cleaning up roadways, assisting the elderly, assisting clean-ups at disaster areas, volunteering anywhere, the list can go on forever. The rate at which they work would be calculated on how much assistance they are receiving. Everyone would get something out of the situation. This system would need much work. It won't work if greed drives the rules, policies, or legislative process.

Damn it....I have to cut this short because the podcast is coming on, but you get where I'm getting at!!!!

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12-12-2011, 09:25 PM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2011 09:48 PM by mysticjbyrd.)
RE: Debunking the Free Market
(10-12-2011 08:31 PM)mdak06 Wrote:  I'm going to try to summarize my point of view on all of this ...

I think that many people misconstrue what a true free market is about, and that leads to people to attack certain ideas or actions that are blamed on a free market but, in fact, have nothing to do with a free market.

A free market is not about assigning a monetary value to everything. It's not about corporations or labor unions getting special government-granted privileges to use against each other. It's not about government backing up businesses no matter what they do. It's not about individuals, groups or businesses being able to do whatever they want.

A free market is all about consent.

It is about all persons who are involved with a transaction / interaction / etc. consenting to everything that is involved in that transaction. It is also about protecting those voluntary interactions between individuals, groups and businesses.

In a free market, if you damage or take my property and I have not consented to that action, it is a civil (or perhaps criminal) violation of my rights. That's true whether you run your car over my lawn, or steal the trade secrets of my company, or dump your toxic waste and contaminate my water supply. All of these are violations of my property rights.

A free market doesn't mean "no government action in the marketplace." A government must protect property rights to secure a free market. If it doesn't, then thugs, crooks, scam artists, etc. will rule the marketplace.

Historically in the United States, we've had governments that have intervened on the side of business owners against their employees, and we've also had governments that have intervened on the side of employees against business owners. Neither of these is proper for a free market. A free market would punish those who use physical force against others and would protect people's right to their justly acquired property.

I prefer my definition,

A true free market is nothing more than economic anarchy.


Quote:You say "health care and education should be free" ... how? Any product or service that exists didn't magically come into existence. Someone created it or provided it. If you say "health care should be free" then what you're saying is "some people should be forced to provide health care services to others."

Why should some people have the right to force other people to do things for them?
You realize that most if not all other industrialized nations have some sort of socialized health care right?
Socialized health care does not stipulate that you help anyone. You are simply paying your taxes, and the government is wisely using those funds for something desperately needed in a civilize nation. We spend twice as much per person as Canada to provide less health care to fewer people.

You are not forced to do anything, include pay your taxes. That is unless you want to reword that to stipulate abiding by laws, in which case there are lots of things you are forced to do for others.

Ohh and here is a fun fact, the US govt spends as much on offense/defense as every other country in the world combined. For what? Nothing but corporate welfare! It sure as heck isn't to keep us safe. 45,000 Americans die every year due to a lack of health insurance. That is vastly higher than the total casualties from every terrorist act in the entire US history.
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12-12-2011, 10:30 PM
RE: Debunking the Free Market
(12-12-2011 09:25 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  I prefer my definition,

A true free market is nothing more than economic anarchy.
Is there a difference between "economic anarchy" and simply the complete absence of government? If so, please explain.

I don't believe a free market is the same thing as anarchy.

Quote:
Quote:You say "health care and education should be free" ... how? Any product or service that exists didn't magically come into existence. Someone created it or provided it. If you say "health care should be free" then what you're saying is "some people should be forced to provide health care services to others."

Why should some people have the right to force other people to do things for them?
You realize that most if not all other industrialized nations have some sort of socialized health care right?
Yes, I'm aware of that. How does that make it the correct action for governments to take?

A majority of the people on this planet believe in a god or gods; that doesn't make it correct.

Quote:Socialized health care does not stipulate that you help anyone. You are simply paying your taxes, and the government is wisely using those funds for something desperately needed in a civilize nation. We spend twice as much per person as Canada to provide less health care to fewer people.

You are not forced to do anything, include pay your taxes. That is unless you want to reword that to stipulate abiding by laws, in which case there are lots of things you are forced to do for others.
If I don't pay taxes, what happens to me? Do I get to continue living my life as normal, or do government agents forcibly take my assets/property and/or put me in jail?

If the answer is the latter, then yes, I am forced to pay taxes.

Quote:Ohh and here is a fun fact, the US govt spends as much on offense/defense as every other country in the world combined. For what? Nothing but corporate welfare! It sure as heck isn't to keep us safe. 45,000 Americans die every year due to a lack of health insurance. That is vastly higher than the total casualties from every terrorist act in the entire US history.
Did I give you any indication that I liked corporate welfare? Did I give you any indication that I like the USA's gigantic military? I don't support either one.

A lack of health insurance is not the same as a lack of health coverage. Please don't equate the two.

Government mandates create incentives that distort the market, which result in an unintended consequence, which the government responds to by creating more incentives, which in turn create further distortion in the market and create additional unintended consequences, and the cycle repeats itself indefinitely.

The slowest industries to adapt to anything in the United States are the two that are the most regulated by government - health care and education. Because the businesses, organizations and individuals involved are required to follow so many rules set down by multiple levels of governments, innovation is essentially discouraged. Whatever progress is made in these industries is done despite government involvement, not because of it.
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14-12-2011, 07:50 AM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2011 05:00 AM by mysticjbyrd.)
RE: Debunking the Free Market
(12-12-2011 10:30 PM)mdak06 Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 09:25 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  I prefer my definition,

A true free market is nothing more than economic anarchy.
Is there a difference between "economic anarchy" and simply the complete absence of government? If so, please explain.

I don't believe a free market is the same thing as anarchy.
Anarchy as in, everyone for themselves.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:You say "health care and education should be free" ... how? Any product or service that exists didn't magically come into existence. Someone created it or provided it. If you say "health care should be free" then what you're saying is "some people should be forced to provide health care services to others."

Why should some people have the right to force other people to do things for them?
You realize that most if not all other industrialized nations have some sort of socialized health care right?
Yes, I'm aware of that. How does that make it the correct action for governments to take?

A majority of the people on this planet believe in a god or gods; that doesn't make it correct.
That is a ridiculous analogy....
Its the correct action for the govt to take because it simply won't happen otherwise. The functioning govt should be made around the people.

Its obvious that people, even you apparently, do not care if people die due to a lack of health insurance or coverage. If health insurance is a capitalistic industry, then the results will be obvious.
The health insurance agencies will intentionally deny people coverage, force them to never or rarely seek medical help, and intentionally let people die to make an almighty dollar.

Quote:Socialized health care does not stipulate that you help anyone. You are simply paying your taxes, and the government is wisely using those funds for something desperately needed in a civilize nation. We spend twice as much per person as Canada to provide less health care to fewer people.

Quote:You are not forced to do anything, include pay your taxes. That is unless you want to reword that to stipulate abiding by laws, in which case there are lots of things you are forced to do for others.
If I don't pay taxes, what happens to me? Do I get to continue living my life as normal, or do government agents forcibly take my assets/property and/or put me in jail?

If the answer is the latter, then yes, I am forced to pay taxes.
Then you have conceded that the govt can rightfully force you to do things, and that many of these actions help other people.

Quote:
Quote:Ohh and here is a fun fact, the US govt spends as much on offense/defense as every other country in the world combined. For what? Nothing but corporate welfare! It sure as heck isn't to keep us safe. 45,000 Americans die every year due to a lack of health insurance. That is vastly higher than the total casualties from every terrorist act in the entire US history.
Did I give you any indication that I liked corporate welfare? Did I give you any indication that I like the USA's gigantic military? I don't support either one.

A lack of health insurance is not the same as a lack of health coverage. Please don't equate the two.

Government mandates create incentives that distort the market, which result in an unintended consequence, which the government responds to by creating more incentives, which in turn create further distortion in the market and create additional unintended consequences, and the cycle repeats itself indefinitely.
Insurance, coverage...semantics bullshit. People are dying because they either don't have health insurance or the insurance they think they have is a steaming pile of shit that's vanishes the moment they try to collect.

And what did this rant have to do with anything? The point was that we have tons of money, we are just badly using it.

Quote:The slowest industries to adapt to anything in the United States are the two that are the most regulated by government - health care and education. Because the businesses, organizations and individuals involved are required to follow so many rules set down by multiple levels of governments, innovation is essentially discouraged. Whatever progress is made in these industries is done despite government involvement, not because of it.
Recent studies show that countries with more regulations grow faster....

Turn off Faux News.

Only in America do we raise kids to be dumb enough to believe its not just ok, but letting people you could easily help die is the right thing to do.
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16-12-2011, 07:15 AM
RE: Debunking the Free Market
Unregulated markets led to anti-trust laws. Ramant insider trading led to the SEC. Employer abuse of employees led to labour unions. Rampant pollution led to the EPA. All this government regulation of business didn't just spring up out of nowhere- it was cause and effect, folks. Left alone, the free market will do whatever it takes to make a fatter profit, and that means poisoning your drinking water and cutting your wages to the point that at the end of the working day you actually owe your employer money rather than the other way around. Unlicensed doctors can practice whatever quackery they like upon you. No consumer protections means anyone can sell you a defective product without fear of repercussions. Is that the world you want to return to? Do you really see that as an improvement over the status quo? Get your heads out of the Libertarian clouds.

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