Declining Empathy and Atheism
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15-01-2015, 06:39 PM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(15-01-2015 08:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And my perspective has a lot more going for it, than anything ever offered by atheists, regarding the harms of religion, or even why people are religious in the first place.

Pure opinion. "A lot more going for it" is actually quite meaningless.

(15-01-2015 08:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But I don't expect anyone to take is a gospel, or with certainty of a scientific theory. But at least as a strong hypothesis, based on personal observations, as well as several studies in support of it.

Wrong. It's not even a weak hypothesis. It's pure opinion, and an opinion which would be the predicted one of a believer. Actually science doesn't qualify strong vs weak hypotheses.

(15-01-2015 08:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you can find an alternative explanation, which you think offers a greater explanatory capacity for the variety of things I mentioned, than I'm all ears, because that's all I'm looking for.

There is no explanation required until the facts are established. They are not established. The polls you referenced are virtually worthless.

I still want to know if you think conversion makes these non-empaths more empathetic, and how that works.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-01-2015, 06:41 PM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
My empathy has majorly increased since becoming an atheist a few years ago. It's like I have a new set of eyes which view life and humanity in a much more clear and positive way.
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16-01-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(15-01-2015 09:08 AM)DLJ Wrote:  But... please consider the possibility that you have it in reverse i.e. that atheism does not necessarily lead to 'systemic-thinking' but reason, systemic-thinking etc. leads to or confirms atheism.

I actually don’t have it in reverse. I’m with you on this. I don’t think atheism is the cause for anything that I’ve written. But rather as you put it that a perchance for systematic-thinking, leads to or confirms atheism. But I do think if you hang out with other atheists, even in places like this, this form of thinking does likely get reinforced, sort of like instilling a value.

I also think there is a strong relationship between systematic thinking, and empathy, primarily a diminished sense of it. What plays more of a cause of the other, I don’t know. Perhaps by continually attempting to perceive the world, in a systematic perceptive, devoid of feelings, we diminish our feeling in the process. I don’t know. From what I read empathy, is sort of like a muscle, without us continually using it, it weakens. So i guess this could be part of the case here.

Quote:It's not that religion is too emotional / empathetic (which are not synonymous, btw) it's that faith-based, myth-based reasoning is unnecessary when one has accepted that are better ways to discover / rationalize what is true.

Part of the reason that I was inspired to right this post, is that I’ve been a part of numerous atheists forums, and groups, for the last decade now. And what I’ve always observed is that there is great deal of differences, between myself, and other atheists, and these differences seem to carry over between atheists and many believers in general.

These differences, don’t seem to be really about the inability of one group to accept certain scientific or historic truths, or even really about inabilities to grasp such things, even if this aspect is present. For me in particular, there doesn’t seem to be any established scientific or historic fact that I am in denial of.

But there does seem to be a strong sense of difference between myself and the general sort of atheists one might find here. This difference sometimes appears so strong, it’s as if we belong to two different planets, speaking two different languages. It seems to me that we view the world through very different lenses, that don’t seem to be a product of being religious, or non-religious, but in essence proceeds that, and serves as the basis for why one of us might find religion compelling, and the other to be dismissive of it. One lens is a deeply personal one, painted primarily by our subjectives senses, the other strives to be the anti-thesis of this, as far removed from oneself as possible, to perceive the world as a scientist would, objective, and given to dissecting the world to its parts.

These perspective shapes the very meaning and idea of “truth”. Where it means something a bit different to one party, than the other. And the tools of one lens don’t work all that well in exploring them.
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16-01-2015, 09:49 AM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(15-01-2015 06:39 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The polls you referenced are virtually worthless.

That's your opinion. I think the combined total of the various studies, sheds a great deal of light. And offers a question worth exploring. If it's not a question you're interested in, you're more than free to not bother with it.
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16-01-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
It wouldn't actually surprise me that much.

I think religious leaders at all levels, and founders are probably all high on the psychopathy scale.

Psychopaths have been known to describe themselves as lions among sheep... The religiously devout being easily manipulated and deceived.

Those who are more logical and analytical may be more likely to break free of religious belief.

Just my musings.

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16-01-2015, 10:12 AM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(16-01-2015 09:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-01-2015 09:08 AM)DLJ Wrote:  But... please consider the possibility that you have it in reverse i.e. that atheism does not necessarily lead to 'systemic-thinking' but reason, systemic-thinking etc. leads to or confirms atheism.

I actually don’t have it in reverse. I’m with you on this. I don’t think atheism is the cause for anything that I’ve written. But rather as you put it that a perchance for systematic-thinking, leads to or confirms atheism. But I do think if you hang out with other atheists, even in places like this, this form of thinking does likely get reinforced, sort of like instilling a value.

I also think there is a strong relationship between systematic thinking, and empathy, primarily a diminished sense of it. What plays more of a cause of the other, I don’t know. Perhaps by continually attempting to perceive the world, in a systematic perceptive, devoid of feelings, we diminish our feeling in the process. I don’t know. From what I read empathy, is sort of like a muscle, without us continually using it, it weakens. So i guess this could be part of the case here.

Quote:It's not that religion is too emotional / empathetic (which are not synonymous, btw) it's that faith-based, myth-based reasoning is unnecessary when one has accepted that are better ways to discover / rationalize what is true.

Part of the reason that I was inspired to right this post, is that I’ve been a part of numerous atheists forums, and groups, for the last decade now. And what I’ve always observed is that there is great deal of differences, between myself, and other atheists, and these differences seem to carry over between atheists and many believers in general.

These differences, don’t seem to be really about the inability of one group to accept certain scientific or historic truths, or even really about inabilities to grasp such things, even if this aspect is present. For me in particular, there doesn’t seem to be any established scientific or historic fact that I am in denial of.

But there does seem to be a strong sense of difference between myself and the general sort of atheists one might find here. This difference sometimes appears so strong, it’s as if we belong to two different planets, speaking two different languages. It seems to me that we view the world through very different lenses, that don’t seem to be a product of being religious, or non-religious, but in essence proceeds that, and serves as the basis for why one of us might find religion compelling, and the other to be dismissive of it. One lens is a deeply personal one, painted primarily by our subjectives senses, the other strives to be the anti-thesis of this, as far removed from oneself as possible, to perceive the world as a scientist would, objective, and given to dissecting the world to its parts.

These perspective shapes the very meaning and idea of “truth”. Where it means something a bit different to one party, than the other. And the tools of one lens don’t work all that well in exploring them.

Anecdotal observations don’t hold a candle to what I mentioned earlier, secular nations have less crime rate and higher standards of living than highly religious ones.

You need to debunk those findings first before you bring “feels” into the conversation or meaningless polls taken of a few college students.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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16-01-2015, 10:31 AM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2015 10:34 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(16-01-2015 09:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-01-2015 06:39 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The polls you referenced are virtually worthless.

That's your opinion. I think the combined total of the various studies, sheds a great deal of light. And offers a question worth exploring. If it's not a question you're interested in, you're more than free to not bother with it.

Combined total of 2 ? Yeah right. The cohort used in them was not statistically valid in any way.

(16-01-2015 09:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I also think there is a strong relationship between systematic thinking, and empathy, primarily a diminished sense of it.

So you're arguing for stupidity and NOT thinking. Just amazing. Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-01-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(16-01-2015 09:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-01-2015 09:08 AM)DLJ Wrote:  But... please consider the possibility that you have it in reverse i.e. that atheism does not necessarily lead to 'systemic-thinking' but reason, systemic-thinking etc. leads to or confirms atheism.

I actually don’t have it in reverse. I’m with you on this. I don’t think atheism is the cause for anything that I’ve written. But rather as you put it that a perchance for systematic-thinking, leads to or confirms atheism. But I do think if you hang out with other atheists, even in places like this, this form of thinking does likely get reinforced, sort of like instilling a value.

I also think there is a strong relationship between systematic thinking, and empathy, primarily a diminished sense of it. What plays more of a cause of the other, I don’t know. Perhaps by continually attempting to perceive the world, in a systematic perceptive, devoid of feelings, we diminish our feeling in the process. I don’t know. From what I read empathy, is sort of like a muscle, without us continually using it, it weakens. So i guess this could be part of the case here.
...

Then we concur.

Using a sample size of one... my anecdote:
Having personal experience of autism I'd pin it down to first, nature and secondly nurture.
Gaining a deeper (but still superficial) understanding of how the brain works; discovering that my son could not interpret facial expressions correctly; hence realising why I too am quite frankly useless at reading body language; living with a woman (my son's mother) who so lacked empathy (to the point of being sociopathic) that I had to compensate... i.e. I got better at being empathetic through practice.

This guy's brother Simon, wrote a well-respected paper on systematic vs. empathetic thinking. I think it was called something like Male vs. Female Brain but I can't find it now.

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(16-01-2015 09:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:It's not that religion is too emotional / empathetic (which are not synonymous, btw) it's that faith-based, myth-based reasoning is unnecessary when one has accepted that are better ways to discover / rationalize what is true.

Part of the reason that I was inspired to right this post, is that I’ve been a part of numerous atheists forums, and groups, for the last decade now. And what I’ve always observed is that there is great deal of differences, between myself, and other atheists, and these differences seem to carry over between atheists and many believers in general.

These differences, don’t seem to be really about the inability of one group to accept certain scientific or historic truths, or even really about inabilities to grasp such things, even if this aspect is present. For me in particular, there doesn’t seem to be any established scientific or historic fact that I am in denial of.

But there does seem to be a strong sense of difference between myself and the general sort of atheists one might find here. This difference sometimes appears so strong, it’s as if we belong to two different planets, speaking two different languages. It seems to me that we view the world through very different lenses, that don’t seem to be a product of being religious, or non-religious, but in essence proceeds that, and serves as the basis for why one of us might find religion compelling, and the other to be dismissive of it. One lens is a deeply personal one, painted primarily by our subjectives senses, the other strives to be the anti-thesis of this, as far removed from oneself as possible, to perceive the world as a scientist would, objective, and given to dissecting the world to its parts.

These perspective shapes the very meaning and idea of “truth”. Where it means something a bit different to one party, than the other. And the tools of one lens don’t work all that well in exploring them.

Bro, you're giving me nothing to work with here.

You are saying that there are differences, great differences and strong ones and you identify what they are not but not what they are.

Can you be more specific?

Cheers.

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16-01-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(16-01-2015 10:31 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(16-01-2015 09:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I also think there is a strong relationship between systematic thinking, and empathy, primarily a diminished sense of it.

So you're arguing for stupidity and NOT thinking. Just amazing. Facepalm

What did you expect? He has to remain willfully ignorant just to accept his idea. No
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16-01-2015, 11:43 PM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2015 12:10 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(16-01-2015 10:12 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(16-01-2015 09:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I actually don’t have it in reverse. I’m with you on this. I don’t think atheism is the cause for anything that I’ve written. But rather as you put it that a perchance for systematic-thinking, leads to or confirms atheism. But I do think if you hang out with other atheists, even in places like this, this form of thinking does likely get reinforced, sort of like instilling a value.

I also think there is a strong relationship between systematic thinking, and empathy, primarily a diminished sense of it. What plays more of a cause of the other, I don’t know. Perhaps by continually attempting to perceive the world, in a systematic perceptive, devoid of feelings, we diminish our feeling in the process. I don’t know. From what I read empathy, is sort of like a muscle, without us continually using it, it weakens. So i guess this could be part of the case here.


Part of the reason that I was inspired to right this post, is that I’ve been a part of numerous atheists forums, and groups, for the last decade now. And what I’ve always observed is that there is great deal of differences, between myself, and other atheists, and these differences seem to carry over between atheists and many believers in general.

These differences, don’t seem to be really about the inability of one group to accept certain scientific or historic truths, or even really about inabilities to grasp such things, even if this aspect is present. For me in particular, there doesn’t seem to be any established scientific or historic fact that I am in denial of.

But there does seem to be a strong sense of difference between myself and the general sort of atheists one might find here. This difference sometimes appears so strong, it’s as if we belong to two different planets, speaking two different languages. It seems to me that we view the world through very different lenses, that don’t seem to be a product of being religious, or non-religious, but in essence proceeds that, and serves as the basis for why one of us might find religion compelling, and the other to be dismissive of it. One lens is a deeply personal one, painted primarily by our subjectives senses, the other strives to be the anti-thesis of this, as far removed from oneself as possible, to perceive the world as a scientist would, objective, and given to dissecting the world to its parts.

These perspective shapes the very meaning and idea of “truth”. Where it means something a bit different to one party, than the other. And the tools of one lens don’t work all that well in exploring them.

Anecdotal observations don’t hold a candle to what I mentioned earlier, secular nations have less crime rate and higher standards of living than highly religious ones.

Why would I debunk something that's true? I don't recall ever arguing that less empathy resulted in higher crime rates or lower standards of living.

The rich and prosperous have been shown to have less of a sense of empathy than the poor, yet they commit fewer crimes, and maintain higher standards of living.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/201...neral&_r=1
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