Declining Empathy and Atheism
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18-01-2015, 07:32 AM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(17-01-2015 08:54 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I’d say that NOT killing your fellow human being shows much more empathy don’t you.

No, I don't. This is the problem with your post. I don't believe a lack of empathy results in higher crime rates, social disfunction, etc... A lack of empathy doesn't seem to result in a greater sense of rage, but often corresponds to a greater degree of apathy.

Why would it follow that because I lack a great deal of empathy, that this would mean I would have a greater desire to kill people? Why would it follow that a lack of empathy would lead people to reject their model of a welfare state? Particularly when they've grown fond of it, and when it's worked well for them? I don't think you believe that the Scandinavian welfare state is sustained by empathy? It's sustained by the fact that each individual as a whole enjoys the benefits they receive from such a model.

It's sort of like universal health care, people protest it passionately prior to implementing it, but once it becomes implemented, it's almost impossible to repeal, because people are so enamored by the benefits it offer. It's not because of a change in empathy, but rather because people enjoy the benefits they individually receive from it.
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18-01-2015, 07:56 AM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(18-01-2015 07:32 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-01-2015 08:54 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I’d say that NOT killing your fellow human being shows much more empathy don’t you.

No, I don't. This is the problem with your post. I don't believe a lack of empathy results in higher crime rates, social disfunction, etc... A lack of empathy doesn't seem to result in a greater sense of rage, but often corresponds to a greater degree of apathy.

Why would it follow that because I lack a great deal of empathy, that this would mean I would have a greater desire to kill people? Why would it follow that a lack of empathy would lead people to reject their model of a welfare state? Particularly when they've grown fond of it, and when it's worked well for them? I don't think you believe that the Scandinavian welfare state is sustained by empathy? It's sustained by the fact that each individual as a whole enjoys the benefits they receive from such a model.

It's sort of like universal health care, people protest it passionately prior to implementing it, but once it becomes implemented, it's almost impossible to repeal, because people are so enamored by the benefits it offer. It's not because of a change in empathy, but rather because people enjoy the benefits they individually receive from it.

*it offers*
OR they come to see the benefits it offers those previously not covered

You just pull this crap out of your ass, don't you ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-01-2015, 07:57 AM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(18-01-2015 07:32 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-01-2015 08:54 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I’d say that NOT killing your fellow human being shows much more empathy don’t you.

No, I don't. This is the problem with your post. I don't believe a lack of empathy results in higher crime rates, social disfunction, etc... A lack of empathy doesn't seem to result in a greater sense of rage, but often corresponds to a greater degree of apathy.

Why would it follow that because I lack a great deal of empathy, that this would mean I would have a greater desire to kill people? Why would it follow that a lack of empathy would lead people to reject their model of a welfare state? Particularly when they've grown fond of it, and when it's worked well for them? I don't think you believe that the Scandinavian welfare state is sustained by empathy? It's sustained by the fact that each individual as a whole enjoys the benefits they receive from such a model.

It's sort of like universal health care, people protest it passionately prior to implementing it, but once it becomes implemented, it's almost impossible to repeal, because people are so enamored by the benefits it offer. It's not because of a change in empathy, but rather because people enjoy the benefits they individually receive from it.

I don’t think you grasped the meaning of the paper quoted or it’s findings.

   

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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18-01-2015, 08:50 AM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(18-01-2015 07:57 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I don’t think you grasped the meaning of the paper quoted or it’s findings.

The paper doesn't seem to be grappling with the question of empathy specifically. We have to extrapolate what it means in regards to overall empathy, based on social health, low crime rates, etc.. I don't think his work allows this to be done, in the way you think it can.

If Zuckerman's work was specifically interested in measuring the level of empathy and apathy between Scandinavians and americans, or between Scandinavians and other predominantly religious countries, rather than overall social health, and contentment, that it would be a different argument.

I think you'll find great deal of empathy, a greater sense of it, among communities of the poor and disenfranchised, even though such communities tend to be plagued by crime and violence, because such communities are so dependent on the empathy of others for their own survival. That necessity fosters and nurtures that sentiment.

While if one lives a in a prosperous community, where all the daily needs are met and sustained by a strong economic system and state, with very little dependence on the empathy and compassion of others, a strong sense of empathy is not really needed. The system is devised in such away where it's no longer a real necessity. It's gears, it's technologies, it economic sustainability operate with little to no requirement of human compassion to keep it going, since mostly all of the needs of people are met through the state.
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18-01-2015, 09:22 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2015 09:28 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(18-01-2015 08:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-01-2015 07:57 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I don’t think you grasped the meaning of the paper quoted or it’s findings.

I think you'll find great deal of empathy, a greater sense of it, among communities of the poor and disenfranchised, even though such communities tend to be plagued by crime and violence, because such communities are so dependent on the empathy of others for their own survival. That necessity fosters and nurtures that sentiment.

This is a baffling statement. You can't separate within a community-state acts that support your premise from those that don't, it has to be looked at as a whole.

Quote:While if one lives a in a prosperous community, where all the daily needs are met and sustained by a strong economic system and state, with very little dependence on the empathy and compassion of others, a strong sense of empathy is not really needed. The system is devised in such away where it's no longer a real necessity. It's gears, it's technologies, it economic sustainability operate with little to no requirement of human compassion to keep it going, since mostly all of the needs of people are met through the state.

And who is the State comprised of? Facepalm


Edit: let me clarify to the point of absurdity -
Citizens ARE the State, the State takes care of its citizens because the citizens want it so, ergo the State, because of its citizens, is caring for its own. This is empathy at its highest level.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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18-01-2015, 09:24 AM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
Extrapolation translates to "assuming what I want"

In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer.
Albert Camus
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19-01-2015, 08:47 AM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(17-01-2015 08:05 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-01-2015 07:12 AM)AlephBet Wrote:  You are defining studies into pathos.

The cat is prancing out of the shoe store too.

(17-01-2015 07:12 AM)AlephBet Wrote:  Pathos, like all opposites, has two sides.

Brilliant. Wait. What ?

(17-01-2015 07:12 AM)AlephBet Wrote:  Empathy and Sympathy are mirrored (Strong Force in Nature, Proton and Neutron). One is positive and one neutral (zero).

If speaking of an opposite to a proton, the "opposite" would be an electron.

(17-01-2015 07:12 AM)AlephBet Wrote:  On the other side of these, you have another mirror. Like courage:fear, so Pathos is to apathy. Lacking faith is lacking pathos, as demonstrated by the replies to me in the future of this post. If your heart is already engaging your rage, you lack true positive pathos.

Please tell us what random word generator you use. Weeping

(17-01-2015 07:12 AM)AlephBet Wrote:  When I say lacking, I am only referring to the choice to love some, but not others apart from your own self.

You REALLY should have used "Non-sequitur" as your name.

Quote:If speaking of an opposite to a proton, the "opposite" would be an electron.

Yes. In Hydrogen, this is how you would see it. When the neutron is present, you have individuation, which is what we are discussing here. The prime focus of all philosophy is how to have unity with multiplicity. The universe has a balance between opposites (neutron and proton) creating the strong nuclear force, allowing for the unity WITH multiplicity. Protons are two up and one down quarks. Neutrons are two down and one up. Balance against the imbalance of the weak force.

If you want to discuss human nature, it must be a mirror of both quantum forces acting their part on each other. I outlined this with the understanding of pathos, which is what Aristotle told us from the beginning. These answers have been known, grounded on natural law. All Greek tragedy is founded on the path to pathos. It is the path and furrow we plow in life. Why? Law leads us to the mark of pathos.

[Image: TAV.jpg]

The word Truth is Emet (Aleph Mem Tav). It literally means, strong water mark.

[Image: ALEPH.jpg] [Image: MEM.jpg] [Image: TAV.jpg]

Missing the mark is Chet (sin), or not hitting the plowman's mark of developing love for others, including God. If you take out Aleph (OX / Strength) from the word, you get death (met).

From physics to the letters of language, the same story repeats in a fractal. Over and over again until we get the point.
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19-01-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(19-01-2015 08:47 AM)AlephBet Wrote:  If you take out Aleph (OX / Strength) from the word, you get death (met).

So you know the golem fable.

Good for you.
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19-01-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(19-01-2015 08:47 AM)AlephBet Wrote:  Missing the mark is Chet (sin), or not hitting the plowman's mark of developing love for others, including God. If you take out Aleph (OX / Strength) from the word, you get death (met).

From physics to the letters of language, the same story repeats in a fractal. Over and over again until we get the point.

OMG, you're the best thing to ever happen to this forum.
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19-01-2015, 02:36 PM
RE: Declining Empathy and Atheism
(19-01-2015 02:34 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(19-01-2015 08:47 AM)AlephBet Wrote:  If you take out Aleph (OX / Strength) from the word, you get death (met).

So you know the golem fable.

Good for you.

That was a fantastic episode of The X-Files.

In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer.
Albert Camus
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