Deconversion and morals
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23-03-2015, 09:35 AM
Deconversion and morals
After reading all the different threads here on morals, I had a thought last night that what would happen concerning morals if every theist came to the conclusion that their religious beliefs were BS and started living in reality?
And by this question I mean would they all go nuts? Would there be more crime in the world without the fear of their gods? I know many theists believe that morals don't exist without their god.
IMO I believe good people will do good and bad people will do bad. But I feel that some theists are only playing nice because their fear keeps them from being worse than they are.
Most people in the US prison system believe in some sort of god but, that hasn't stopped them from committing crimes. What about the ones doing good because they feel they have to?
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23-03-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: Deconversion and morals
(23-03-2015 09:35 AM)Ocean theRAPIST Wrote:  IMO I believe good people will do good and bad people will do bad.
That's like original sin. There is no good or bad people only some people with bad nurturing/education
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23-03-2015, 09:49 AM
RE: Deconversion and morals
If they're faith would just disappear within a second I am afraid they would be so confused that they might start doing some fucked up shit thinking it is completely fine because god doesn't exist.

I think for someone to successfully become and atheist without starting to commit crimes he/she would need a little more time for thinking
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23-03-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: Deconversion and morals
(23-03-2015 09:35 AM)Ocean theRAPIST Wrote:  After reading all the different threads here on morals, I had a thought last night that what would happen concerning morals if every theist came to the conclusion that their religious beliefs were BS and started living in reality?
And by this question I mean would they all go nuts? Would there be more crime in the world without the fear of their gods? I know many theists believe that morals don't exist without their god.
IMO I believe good people will do good and bad people will do bad. But I feel that some theists are only playing nice because their fear keeps them from being worse than they are.
Most people in the US prison system believe in some sort of god but, that hasn't stopped them from committing crimes. What about the ones doing good because they feel they have to?

Our morals would still vary. Labels do not automatically make one do good.

There are atheists who value Ayn Rand. Others who value Che. Others who love guns, and others who hate guns. You can have PC atheists and others like me who cuss and blaspheme all the time. Some who buy conspiracies like 9/11 and JFK and others like me who think that is bullshit.

Atheist is a position, not a moral code. It merely means "off".

The only thing you can argue is that ON AVERAGE , we lean more to valuing science and education. But that does not mean we are a political party or moral code. But we are still part of the same evolution that produces both cruelty and compassion.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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23-03-2015, 10:20 AM
RE: Deconversion and morals
(23-03-2015 09:54 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 09:35 AM)Ocean theRAPIST Wrote:  After reading all the different threads here on morals, I had a thought last night that what would happen concerning morals if every theist came to the conclusion that their religious beliefs were BS and started living in reality?
And by this question I mean would they all go nuts? Would there be more crime in the world without the fear of their gods? I know many theists believe that morals don't exist without their god.
IMO I believe good people will do good and bad people will do bad. But I feel that some theists are only playing nice because their fear keeps them from being worse than they are.
Most people in the US prison system believe in some sort of god but, that hasn't stopped them from committing crimes. What about the ones doing good because they feel they have to?

Our morals would still vary. Labels do not automatically make one do good.

There are atheists who value Ayn Rand. Others who value Che. Others who love guns, and others who hate guns. You can have PC atheists and others like me who cuss and blaspheme all the time. Some who buy conspiracies like 9/11 and JFK and others like me who think that is bullshit.

Atheist is a position, not a moral code. It merely means "off".

The only thing you can argue is that ON AVERAGE , we lean more to valuing science and education. But that does not mean we are a political party or moral code. But we are still part of the same evolution that produces both cruelty and compassion.

I wasn't directing this towards the current non believers but more towards how would theists be morally, without the punishment or reward in the afterlife if they all lost their faith.

I understand that morals to one society don't apply to every society. I kinda feel that my morals are the whole "if I don't want it done to me why would I do it to someone else?" And I don't need a book to figure that out.
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23-03-2015, 10:24 AM
RE: Deconversion and morals
(23-03-2015 09:35 AM)Ocean theRAPIST Wrote:  After reading all the different threads here on morals, I had a thought last night that what would happen concerning morals if every theist came to the conclusion that their religious beliefs were BS and started living in reality?
And by this question I mean would they all go nuts? Would there be more crime in the world without the fear of their gods? I know many theists believe that morals don't exist without their god.
IMO I believe good people will do good and bad people will do bad. But I feel that some theists are only playing nice because their fear keeps them from being worse than they are.
Most people in the US prison system believe in some sort of god but, that hasn't stopped them from committing crimes. What about the ones doing good because they feel they have to?

What would happen is that most of them would come to the conclusion that even though there is no god they still need a code of values to guide their actions and choices if they want to have a full and happy life and they would have to discover these principles the same way any knowledge is discovered, with reason.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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23-03-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: Deconversion and morals
(23-03-2015 09:35 AM)Ocean theRAPIST Wrote:  After reading all the different threads here on morals, I had a thought last night that what would happen concerning morals if every theist came to the conclusion that their religious beliefs were BS and started living in reality?
And by this question I mean would they all go nuts? Would there be more crime in the world without the fear of their gods? I know many theists believe that morals don't exist without their god.
IMO I believe good people will do good and bad people will do bad. But I feel that some theists are only playing nice because their fear keeps them from being worse than they are.
Most people in the US prison system believe in some sort of god but, that hasn't stopped them from committing crimes. What about the ones doing good because they feel they have to?

This was a concern expressed by Thomas Paine in The Age of Reason at the end of the 18th Century--dissolving the church might lead some to throw away their morality--to a nihilistic approach to life.

The answer, I believe, is that those who de-convert should be solidly grounded in the philosophical bases of "Humanism":

1. Humans are social in nature.
2. Our greatest source of happiness comes from good relations with our fellow humans.
3. In order to have genuine and lasting good relations with our fellow beings, it is advisable to be an "ethical" person. (I prefer the term "ethical" to "moral" because it suggests an interpersonal interaction).

This is one of the reasons that a person may need need to seek de-conversion therapy during the time of de-conversion. I know that if this had been available to me when I was going through the de-conversion process, it would have been much easier psychologically.

A good book about "Humanism" (there are many) is The Philosophy of Humanism by Corliss Lamont. Also, see The Humanist Manifesto, especially the second one from 1973 and the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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23-03-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: Deconversion and morals
I would think the pragmatic aspect of losing a belief in god(s) would cause a person to still behave pretty much the same. If you wake up one morning without a belief in god(s), you will still go to jail for murdering someone.

You would also still retain a sense of morality that could be rooted in your upbringing. Perhaps a major change would be how women are treated and/or acceptance of alternative sexuality. Bigotry of that nature would simply collapse without an underpinning of religion.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-03-2015, 02:40 PM
RE: Deconversion and morals
Theists "go nuts"??


Isn't that a bit redundant???

heh

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The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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23-03-2015, 03:28 PM
RE: Deconversion and morals
Bad people do bad things. God has nothing to do with it.
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