Decriminalize meth?
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23-12-2013, 03:28 PM
RE: Decriminalize meth?
(23-12-2013 02:57 PM)frankksj Wrote:  I've only known two meth users. One was architect, and neither one would you know they were on something. Just curious how many meth users you interviewed to get stats on what the "average" meth user is like?

Regardless, imo, much of the reason why meth is so bad is because it's illegal, therefore only a seedier crowd takes it, it lacks acceptance, and people taking it are getting impure, deadly stuff cooked in someone's kitchen. If it were reversed, and meth was legal and alcohol was not, I imagine we'd also see people drinking nasty, dangerous moonshine, and meth users would look more like those in your pictures.

I never formally interviewed a single drug addict but I grew up in drugs infested neighborhood. Two of my elementary school classmates died from overdose and another one is what you would call a crackwhore.
I also ones got the ambulance for a 16 y/o girl who ODed in the park , saved that time only to die two months later from another OD.
I know of at least 10 other deaths by OD , and I personally know maybe 50 drug addicts.
Most of them on heroin, not meth.
And yeah, I tried almost everything out there myself.
On the other hand, 98% of people I know drink, that would be hundreds of people and I don't know a single person who has died from alcohol, or ended up in prison, or selling parents stuff from the house to get alcohol. Consider
I know, all anecdotal...

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23-12-2013, 04:04 PM
RE: Decriminalize meth?
(23-12-2013 03:28 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  On the other hand, 98% of people I know drink, that would be hundreds of people and I don't know a single person who has died from alcohol, or ended up in prison, or selling parents stuff from the house to get alcohol. Consider
I know, all anecdotal...

Don't confuse causation with correlation. Is the CAUSE that alcohol is less dangerous? Or is the CAUSE that alcohol is LEGAL and therefore it is less dangerous?

What if you go back in time to the 19th century, when they were all legal, when you could buy alcohol, cocaine, heroin and anything else? What drug caused the most problems?

And what happened in the 10 years since Portugal decriminalized ALL drugs, including the hardest ones? The number of addicts has been cut in half, drug usage is down, drug-related crime is gone, fewer people rotting in prison. Seriously, what are the downsides? Why wouldn't we want the same thing in the US? link
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23-12-2013, 04:25 PM
RE: Decriminalize meth?
I don't know, maybe it could work.

My biggest issue with it , compared to alcohol, is that you can drink your whole life and never became an alcoholic or suffer any consequences from it , but can you take meth regularly and not become a junky with serious medical and mental problems ?

You think that legalizing it would boost the quality and safety of it to the point that we don't have scores of dead teens every week?

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23-12-2013, 07:58 PM
RE: Decriminalize meth?
(23-12-2013 04:25 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I don't know, maybe it could work.

My biggest issue with it , compared to alcohol, is that you can drink your whole life and never became an alcoholic or suffer any consequences from it , but can you take meth regularly and not become a junky with serious medical and mental problems ?

You think that legalizing it would boost the quality and safety of it to the point that we don't have scores of dead teens every week?

The fact that the US has the highest rate of illegal drug use in the world, it's clear the US's drug policy is not working. Portugal legalized everything and they have FEWER dead teens--not more.

Now, it's true, that there are countries with even stricter drug policies than the US, like Indonesia and other Muslim countries where drug possession results in swift execution. So, it seems to me that if the US wants to lose the coveted #1 spot for illegal drug use we have to try something else, either: 1) do like the rest of the Western World and have a less-harsh drug policy, or just decriminalize them like Portugal did and treat drug addiction with compassion like a disease, or 2) do like the Muslim world make it a capital offense and execute drug users. Which direction do you think the US should go?
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23-12-2013, 08:26 PM
RE: Decriminalize meth?
(23-12-2013 04:25 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I don't know

Yes.

Quote:My biggest issue with it , compared to alcohol, is that you can drink your whole life and never became an alcoholic or suffer any consequences from it , but can you take meth regularly and not become a junky with serious medical and mental problems ?

Yes, you can "take meth regularly and not become a junky with serious medical and mental problems"; the data from methamphetamine use in relation to narcolepsy, ADHD, obesity and the military says so.

Quote:You think that legalizing it would boost the quality and safety of it to the point that we don't have scores of dead teens every week?

Yes, the Portuguese data say so.

How common are cases of contaminated legally produced alcohol?
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23-12-2013, 08:32 PM
RE: Decriminalize meth?
(23-12-2013 09:24 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  So if they're not your business, what business you got telling me what's what? Big Grin

When I say it's not my business I mean that the behaviour is fundamentally self-regarding so there is no good reason why I should require that meth users be criminally prosecuted. The criminal prosecution of self-regarding behaviour is my business because I believe I should be able to do with my physical person as I wish (so long as I have budgeted for my possible medical expenses and I am not otherwise breaking the law).

Quote:And the local evidence from being a user is that far more people can handle their alcohol than their meth. Besides, it's fucking gross. Tongue

Two points:
--Most crank is impure
--You and your social circle don't comprise a representative sample
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23-12-2013, 08:37 PM
RE: Decriminalize meth?
Look dude,my opinion doesnt matter much,but i think you should try to be less of an asshole. You're smart,but your attitude really annoying . Oh,and i think meth should be decriminalized

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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23-12-2013, 09:09 PM
RE: Decriminalize meth?
Decriminalize all drug use - end this ridiculous 'war on drugs'. Angry

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-12-2013, 09:14 PM
RE: Decriminalize meth?
(23-12-2013 12:41 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  ...irrelevant garbage with lots of spelling errors...

Quote:Again, with all the time and effort you invested in researching the subject you fail to recognize the real issues of legalizing meth, and I am the stupid one?

Yes, clearly so.

Quote:You are stupid enough to compare the worst case scenario of alcohol abuse to the best possible application of meth. Instead of comparing the effects on average user of alcohol to an average user of meth you compare the backstreet dumpster digging alcoholic to a military personnel or medical patients getting meth in a controlled environment administered by medical stuff.

It is you that is failing to compare the average alcohol user with the average (pure) meth user. Your anecdotes aren't data, they are based on unrepresentative samples of people with a multitude of confounding variables. Your stupidity consists in attempting to use anecdotes as data and then proceeding to try and discredit a paper (that is based on data and was published in The Lancet) using your anecdotes and "internet memes".

Compare:
Me--cites an authoritative paper, avoids anecdotes, understands causation and confounds
You--cites no research results, invokes anecdotes and internet memes, conflates causation with correlation, ignores confounding variables

If Google usage can account for this difference then you should use it more.

Quote:Your claim that is less harmful for people and the society to take meth on friday nights then to have a beer, and that a party with 50 teens taking meth is less harmful then the same 50 teens having a few drinks. Frusty

Look at what you are comparing:

Alcoholic beverages produced in standards compliant manufacturing facilities vs.
Methamphetamine produced in clandestine labs without any quality control

Alcoholic beverages containing a standardised quantity of alcohol vs.
a mixture of compounds only part of which is methamphetamine and the actual quantity of methamphetamine is unknown

If the meth is pure and not bathtub crank and the dosing is known then the meth using teenagers have no more chance of harm than the alcohol using teenagers.

Quote:You also assume that if something is prescribed to soldiers it must be all right.

No, I don't assume that I know that based on the knowledge that it is standard practice for all military pilots on long-haul flights and special operations teams that must operate all night.

Quote:On top of it you try to justify legalizing one bad thing with the fact that another bad thing is legal.

Most "bad things" aren't illegal and it is not a legitimate role for the government to dictate what people do to their own bodies. The point of comparing meth to alcohol is to illustrate that the government doesn't consistently criminalise "bad things". There is no rationality in drug-related public policy, it is instead the end-result of hysterical rantings like yours fed by anecdotes and myths from a senstationalist mass media.

Quote:Meth can cause users to become delusional, paranoid and suffer from hallucinations. It can also lead to psychotic behavior even months after a user has stopped using. In other words, meth can make you act crazy.

I know--it can. And alcohol can cause you to run over pedestrians and drive through the front room of a house killing a family watching TV.

The alcohol intoxicated driver that has killed a family has done more harm than the meth user that has made him/herself psychotic.

Quote:You fail to mention that meth is highly addictive, to the point that it can hardly be
called a "recreational drug".

No, you fail to read the table from the paper that shows that meth is no more physically addictive than alcohol. You also fail to take account of the fact that meth is used medically and recreationally by many people that don't become addicted and that don't develop psychosis.

Quote:You fail to mention the risk of meth overdose, and how easy is to overdose with it for the first time user or the experienced one.

That problem is due entirely to the meths clandestine origin and unknown concentration. That isn't a problem that is intrinsic to methamphetamine.

From your own quote:

The reason that it is not difficult to overdose on this particular drug is because meth is made up of various poisonous substances, and no single batch is formulated in exactly the same way

Do you read what you cut and paste?
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23-12-2013, 09:23 PM
RE: Decriminalize meth?
(23-12-2013 08:37 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  Look dude,my opinion doesnt matter much,but i think you should try to be less of an asshole. You're smart,but your attitude really annoying .

I'll try because you asked nicely.

Quote: Oh,and i think meth should be decriminalized

Good for you and your opinion does matter because you (can) vote. The more people that can approach this topic rationally and based on evidence the better.
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