Deistic thoughts of an atheist
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09-01-2013, 03:38 PM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(09-01-2013 03:23 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  You're probably the most open-minded journey-driven Atheist I have met.
Not totally sure though since you've only but 5 posts so far.
Why would you stroke my ego like that and then take it right back!? I don't know what to feel now. Tongue
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09-01-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(09-01-2013 03:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 03:24 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I don't get the Universe being "imperfect" part. What would be a "perfect" version of the Universe?
It's the same old Theistic show-stopper: pain and suffering.
So a perfect Universe is one without pain and suffering? So, without any living organisms, would that make the Universe perfect? Consider

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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09-01-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(09-01-2013 02:28 PM)moonbogg Wrote:  Yep, you got it. I'm just wondering though, at what point do things start to look a little suspicious? Is there a point that things could develop to that would make you a little suspicious? I like thinking about possibilities. So I am wondering, is there a point that life could develop to that would make you simply sit back, take a look at it and say to yourself, "There is no F-ing way that the experience of life is not the goal here"? Is that possible for you? It is for me. Granted the world does not meet that criteria, but I have done this thought experiment and have concluded that I do have a threshold. If one day the universe is just full of life, and its all super advanced, and everyone is in contact with one another and its just one big, huge happy community, then at that point I would sit back and say, "No F-ing way was life not the goal here".
I'd like to think I'm not completely closed-minded so I probably do have a threshold, as you put it, but a universe full of life wouldn't do it for me. That would just be the natural progression of growth. In all likelihood, it would take something undeniable for me that would make me know there's a god rather than being suspicious.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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09-01-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(09-01-2013 03:24 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 01:49 PM)Impulse Wrote:  In my mind, the universe is too enormous, complex, and imperfect to have been created by any god or gods; theistic, deistic, or otherwise.
I don't get the Universe being "imperfect" part. What would be a "perfect" version of the Universe?
I agree with Chas, the absence of pain and suffering would be mandatory.

But how about even just a perfect Earth? We could really do without all the hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, mud slides, volcanic eruptions, floods, disease, and droughts.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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09-01-2013, 03:50 PM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(09-01-2013 03:42 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 03:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's the same old Theistic show-stopper: pain and suffering.
So a perfect Universe is one without pain and suffering? So, without any living organisms, would that make the Universe perfect? Consider
So you can't have living organisms without also having pain and suffering? Consider

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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09-01-2013, 03:51 PM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(09-01-2013 03:48 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 03:24 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I don't get the Universe being "imperfect" part. What would be a "perfect" version of the Universe?
I agree with Chas, the absence of pain and suffering would be mandatory.

But how about even just a perfect Earth? We could really do without all the hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, mud slides, volcanic eruptions, floods, disease, and droughts.
Right, that would definitely be nice. But agents of feeling, thoughts and emotions are required for there to even be the prospect of pain and suffering, as far as I can tell.

If those agents weren't around, it seems like everything would be fine.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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09-01-2013, 03:52 PM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(09-01-2013 03:42 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 02:28 PM)moonbogg Wrote:  
I'd like to think I'm not completely closed-minded so I probably do have a threshold, as you put it, but a universe full of life wouldn't do it for me. That would just be the natural progression of growth. In all likelihood, it would take something undeniable for me that would make me know there's a god rather than being suspicious.
Well then there is your threshold. I think most people have them. Have you thought about what it would take? I know this is something that theists often ask to try and trick atheists with word games etc. I'll say it clearly again since i'm new here. I am atheist and I am not tricking you or trolling. But I am curious as to what would convince you. It would have to be something that you could not possibly write off with some far reaching natural explanation. I find that sort of proof difficult to imagine. Putting my skepticism to the test like this, I believe, makes it much stronger, and its fun.
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09-01-2013, 03:52 PM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(09-01-2013 03:23 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 03:19 PM)moonbogg Wrote:  I don't know. I'm just saying there is a theoretical scenario that would make me suspicious enough to where I would find it likely that a life filled universe was the goal of something. I may remain agnostic due to lack of evidence, but at that point I would suspect that something created the universe or at least was aware of what was happening. I am admitting that I am capable of being pushed into, or close to a faith position with regard to a conscious creator. I find it interesting to test the limits of my skepticism with though experiments.
EDIT: I can't talk about this stuff with my theist friends because they will think I am turning into a theist and they will only try to drag me into the pit with them.
You're probably the most open-minded journey-driven Atheist I have met.
Not totally sure though since you've only but 5 posts so far.
You confuse 'open-minded' with 'undecided'.
I have searched and researched for more years than you've been on this earth and have reached the conclusion that a theistic god is not possible. A deistic creator of the universe is not ruled out.

My search was open-minded. For me, the question of a theistic god is quite settled.

Have you read Stenger's GOD: The Failed Hypothesis?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-01-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(09-01-2013 03:50 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 03:42 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  So a perfect Universe is one without pain and suffering? So, without any living organisms, would that make the Universe perfect? Consider
So you can't have living organisms without also having pain and suffering? Consider
And your definition of "perfect" is what? Consider

The only thing that definition hinges on is things like us.
Perhaps perfection is subjective. If it's subjective, then you can't really posit anything on the creator since it's only us that is defining perfect.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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09-01-2013, 03:54 PM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(09-01-2013 03:42 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 03:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's the same old Theistic show-stopper: pain and suffering.
So a perfect Universe is one without pain and suffering? So, without any living organisms, would that make the Universe perfect? Consider
In whose eyes would the perfection be visible?

The universe is neither perfect nor imperfect. The universe simply is.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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