Deistic thoughts of an atheist
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11-01-2013, 07:29 AM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(09-01-2013 04:28 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  hopefully the fleeting yearning for a belief in an afterlife will subside completely.

I think once you're in a position to experimentally confirm such an assertion it will subside rather rapidly, yes Big Grin
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11-01-2013, 12:12 PM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(11-01-2013 07:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 04:28 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  hopefully the fleeting yearning for a belief in an afterlife will subside completely.

I think once you're in a position to experimentally confirm such an assertion it will subside rather rapidly, yes Big Grin
Maybe even simultaneously with arriving in that position to experimentally confirm the assertion.

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22-01-2013, 02:51 AM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
Deism/theism to an independent mind-- is it such a difficult thing?

All truths should be verifiable. Even if we can't explain why they work or how they work, to know that they do work-- is that not enough? Does it require the presence of some designer?

Almost all of this universe is not suitable for human life. We're on a collision course with Andromeda. Even on our own planet. Most is water. Then you have extreme cold. There are diseases that can outsmart our best. There are birth defects that we have no idea where they come from (most of them). We have to eat constantly to live. We require a strict range of temperature and atmosphere just to exist. We are not living on a planet that is designed for us. In fact, if you look at the universe as designed, it is most certainly designed to kill us.

We are living as a species designed to adapt.

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22-01-2013, 05:48 AM (This post was last modified: 22-01-2013 06:24 AM by Atothetheist.)
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
Well, I am more than willing to entertain the possibility that there might be a deity of which has no interest in my existence, or as Christopher Hitchens brilliantly says, sexual positions, and food. To believe in such a deity is chewing off more than one can possibly hope to swallow.

A deity of any type is, at least to my limited knowledge, incredibly improbable. One might have to ask how this being, if it created existence as we know it, existed before the very concept came into being. But, lets say that there was a mysterious God.... What of it? Besides the explanation of the universe, it serves no other purpose, and will serve no purpose, if I am familiar with the deistic definition. A deity of this sort is, by definition, apathetic to me, and me to it.

It doesn't make any difference if a Deistic god exists, because the universe would essentially be the same, or at least look the same, as universe (or, in a greater scope, reality) without ANY deity.

Now, having deistic thoughts is natural, we humans are prone to, again as Hitchens said, take a bad answer over none at all.

Basically, to me, a Deitic god is absolutely a nonissue to me.

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22-01-2013, 07:07 AM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(09-01-2013 01:36 PM)moonbogg Wrote:  I am atheist and I have been asking myself what it would take for me to at least suspect that life was not an accident. I know that the mechanism by which life evolved is well understood and that is not a concern of mine. I am having a hard time putting these thoughts into words so i'll just spit it out as simply as I can.
From my perspective I don't see the universe, life or the world we live in as being designed in any way. Everything looks perfectly natural, chaotic and random. But I am wondering what things might look like in the future and how that might change my opinion. We know that, if we survive, we are in the early stages of our evolution as this could continue on for billions of years into the future, giving rise to who knows what kind of intelligent life and what we will be capable of. This doesn't even take into account the prospect of other life in the universe. So, in short, I am finding it difficult to estimate the nature of life or the universe because I am only aware of a very narrow, early slice of it.
Already life on at least this planet has connected itself together with forms of communication, forming a global network which adds richness to the experience of life. In the future I could easily imagine us contacting others in the universe and joining a community that spans across countless light years. Trying to imagine what things might be like in the distant future gives me a very diffrent picture of life and the universe in general.
When I take those possibilities into account, and I find them likely actually, and then I simply take that scenario at face value, I find it hard to outright dismiss that such a grand development was not planned. Right now when i look around I see an underdeveloped experiment that we call life, with all sorts of suffering and its just a big mess. But what if life, at least in our corner of the milky way is just getting started? It might blossom into something, that when mature, would be very hard to dismiss in any possible way as not being fully intentional.
This would not be a theistic god responsible for this, at least I don't see how it could be. This god would be a deistic god, or a god that acts like a gardener. The universe would have been ceated, like planting seeds and preparing the ground for a natural, yet planned garden to unfold and grow. Along the way some seeds would die and not make it, thingd would be messy and so forth, but the end result would be a beautiful garden. This is no consolation to those suffering now of course, but again, if this idea is true, then individuals are not the focus of this creation here, but it is the overall "garden" of life that is important.
Please excuse the poor analogies etc, I did the best I could. And no, I am not a trolling theist trying to sneak my way in here, lol.
Here's the problem with the idea of a deistic god who does not interfere in the universe but simply keeps it in tend, is:

A) It makes the god a slave and therefore, not much of a god
B) Almost everything in the universe can be measured and calculated into complex equation to predict movement within the universe.

Let me offer a theory on how the Big Bang Theory happened and perhaps you'll have a counter argument.

There is a theory that our universe is a branch of a web of many universes. That a black hole is where the universe has splintered and being a black hole, draws in light and energy until it builds and explodes outward, creating a whole new universe.

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22-01-2013, 07:31 AM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(22-01-2013 07:07 AM)DeathsNotoriousAngel Wrote:  
(09-01-2013 01:36 PM)moonbogg Wrote:  I am atheist and I have been asking myself what it would take for me to at least suspect that life was not an accident. I know that the mechanism by which life evolved is well understood and that is not a concern of mine. I am having a hard time putting these thoughts into words so i'll just spit it out as simply as I can.
From my perspective I don't see the universe, life or the world we live in as being designed in any way. Everything looks perfectly natural, chaotic and random. But I am wondering what things might look like in the future and how that might change my opinion. We know that, if we survive, we are in the early stages of our evolution as this could continue on for billions of years into the future, giving rise to who knows what kind of intelligent life and what we will be capable of. This doesn't even take into account the prospect of other life in the universe. So, in short, I am finding it difficult to estimate the nature of life or the universe because I am only aware of a very narrow, early slice of it.
Already life on at least this planet has connected itself together with forms of communication, forming a global network which adds richness to the experience of life. In the future I could easily imagine us contacting others in the universe and joining a community that spans across countless light years. Trying to imagine what things might be like in the distant future gives me a very diffrent picture of life and the universe in general.
When I take those possibilities into account, and I find them likely actually, and then I simply take that scenario at face value, I find it hard to outright dismiss that such a grand development was not planned. Right now when i look around I see an underdeveloped experiment that we call life, with all sorts of suffering and its just a big mess. But what if life, at least in our corner of the milky way is just getting started? It might blossom into something, that when mature, would be very hard to dismiss in any possible way as not being fully intentional.
This would not be a theistic god responsible for this, at least I don't see how it could be. This god would be a deistic god, or a god that acts like a gardener. The universe would have been ceated, like planting seeds and preparing the ground for a natural, yet planned garden to unfold and grow. Along the way some seeds would die and not make it, thingd would be messy and so forth, but the end result would be a beautiful garden. This is no consolation to those suffering now of course, but again, if this idea is true, then individuals are not the focus of this creation here, but it is the overall "garden" of life that is important.
Please excuse the poor analogies etc, I did the best I could. And no, I am not a trolling theist trying to sneak my way in here, lol.
Here's the problem with the idea of a deistic god who does not interfere in the universe but simply keeps it in tend, is:

A) It makes the god a slave and therefore, not much of a god
B) Almost everything in the universe can be measured and calculated into complex equation to predict movement within the universe.

Let me offer a theory on how the Big Bang Theory happened and perhaps you'll have a counter argument.

There is a theory that our universe is a branch of a web of many universes. That a black hole is where the universe has splintered and being a black hole, draws in light and energy until it builds and explodes outward, creating a whole new universe.

How would god be a slave? Why can't he/she/it simply choose not to interfere as much as he can?

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22-01-2013, 10:23 AM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(22-01-2013 07:31 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  How would god be a slave? Why can't he/she/it simply choose not to interfere as much as he can?
I considered asking him the same question when I was using Tapatalk during my history classes today. Then I decided to wait until I was home. Then you beat me to it. Dodgy

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22-01-2013, 09:29 PM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
Well since we are all quoting the great Hitch here I go: "All this could be part of a design. There is no way for an atheist to prove that it isn't. But it is some design isn't it? With mass suffering, needless annihilation... It would have to mean that the designer of this plan was unbelievably lazy and inept, or unbelievably callous and cruel and indifferent, and capricious. And that is the case for every argument for design that has ever been made."

I am sorry but you are using the good old argument from "design" or "complexity". It consists on basically finding something hard/impossible to explain so you kick it a step back and take pride on your ignorance. The same goes for morality, first cause, beauty, and so on...

George Carlin said the same thing in a funnier way: "The longer you live here you realize that something is wrong. Something is wrong here... something is FUCKED UP. War, desease, famine, torture, rape and the ice capades.This guy is either stupid or maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit."

I assume you come from a monotheist background. Probably that would explain why you invoke "a" designer. How do you know it is one. Maybe there are two designers. Maybe there are ten. Maybe there a billions of designers. Or maybe, there is no designer at all. As I just said before, there is no way to "prove" that there are no cosmic designers, however you can't prove either that there are not unicorns or pixies. That's why I consider myself a "Tooth Fairy Agnostic", I don't know that there is no God but I put it in the same category as The Tooth Fairy, and to be honest, I consider that that is the only sensible position to have given that there is absolutely no evidence for any designer/planner/cosmic dictator.

Antitheist - Tooth Fairy Agnostic - Rationalist - Humanist - Individualist - Libertarian Minarchist

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23-01-2013, 11:01 PM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2013 11:15 PM by SingingBear.)
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
This may be a bad analogy, but: I may die before I finish this post.

But I am 31. I have no major health concerns that I am aware of. There is no immediate danger to me that I can perceive.

The possibility that I could die before I finish this post doesn't normally enter into my head and, in my current state, I am right not to be concerned.

Now, on the other hand, it may be of value to me to think, "Wow. I could die before I click 'post reply.'" It might lead me to more appreciate this moment or the people or things of real substance and quality I have in life. It might persuade me to exercise more or eat healthier food and drink.

But in a state of good health and youth, is the thought worth pondering on any other level than as a symbol of the frailty and uncertainty of life?

"The problem with faith is that it really is a conversation stopper. Faith is a declaration of immunity to the powers of conversation. It is a reason why you do not have to give reasons for what you believe." - Sam Harris
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24-01-2013, 06:17 AM
RE: Deistic thoughts of an atheist
(22-01-2013 07:31 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(22-01-2013 07:07 AM)DeathsNotoriousAngel Wrote:  Here's the problem with the idea of a deistic god who does not interfere in the universe but simply keeps it in tend, is:

A) It makes the god a slave and therefore, not much of a god
B) Almost everything in the universe can be measured and calculated into complex equation to predict movement within the universe.

Let me offer a theory on how the Big Bang Theory happened and perhaps you'll have a counter argument.

There is a theory that our universe is a branch of a web of many universes. That a black hole is where the universe has splintered and being a black hole, draws in light and energy until it builds and explodes outward, creating a whole new universe.

How would god be a slave? Why can't he/she/it simply choose not to interfere as much as he can?

(22-01-2013 10:23 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(22-01-2013 07:31 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  How would god be a slave? Why can't he/she/it simply choose not to interfere as much as he can?
I considered asking him the same question when I was using Tapatalk during my history classes today. Then I decided to wait until I was home. Then you beat me to it. Dodgy
The same reason you don't interfere with an ant farm. Oh sure, you could interfere, but you'll just end up messing something up.

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