Demagogoe or democrat?- Reis - Erdogan movie
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19-03-2017, 04:03 AM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2017 04:07 AM by Deltabravo.)
Demagogoe or democrat?- Reis - Erdogan movie
Hey, get your tickets now! There's a new movie out about Turkish President Erdogan http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5988370/

It's called "Reis" and it documents his astonishing life story of rising from the ranks ask a First World War soldier, becoming a painter, writing a book about his struggle... hmmm...

I'm now convinced he's not an Islamist at all. There are increasing reports of his being "got to"by the Kemalists. Their own party developed such a bad rap that they can't get elected. The main opposition party which is the actual party of Ataturk, the CHP, is led by a Kurd, so it's not so popular these days.

Erdogan was a very popular mayor of Istambul and set up the AKP party. Under the AKP, Turkey went through a process of modernisation and brought relative prosperity to Turkey. He was aligned with and an ally of the cleric, Fetullah Gulen, with whom Erdogan fell out. Erdogan began claiming that the Gulenists were part of a state within a state and began purging them a few years ago. Gulen himself has been holed up in Pennsylvannia for several years now.

If you ask Turks about the situation you get an interesting and not widely known perspective on this. Most will say that despite everything, Erdogan has been better for the country than any of the other parties could have been. If you ask them about the Gulenists, they will say that, if anything, they are worse than Erdogan. One Istambul lawyer wrote an article after the coup that the purging of police, judiciary and prosecution of Gulenists was long overdue because they typically did not respect the rule of law and were locking people up without due process.

Several years ago a large number of Turkish Generals were locked up after being accused of conspiring to overthrow Erdogan, and at that time Gulen was accused of being behind the trial that led to them being imprisoned.

The Generals were released shortly before Erdogan was elected as President and after that he ramped up his attacks on Gulenists, callling for the extradition of Gulen from the US.

The Generals pledged to get even with those who had them locked up:

From Reuters:
"This case will only be closed when those who have plotted it are in jail," former First Army commander General Cetin Dogan, a chief suspect in the case, told reporters outside Istanbul's Silivri prison after his release.

"So that they don't set up innocent people again."

"Obviously I'am happy my husband is being released but it is a bitter-sweet happiness," his wife Nilgul Dogan told Reuters. "These people were held unjustly in jail for four years due to a fabricated, wrongful, unjust trial."

"They must give account to us for those four years. After our husbands have rested for some time, we will continue to fight for this country for our children and grandchildren."

Erdogan, his primacy over the army established, said early this year he was open to the idea of a retrial. Officials had suggested evidence had been manipulated by a Islamic cleric who had been using his influence in the police and judiciary to help Erdogan break the army's power.

Cleric Fethullah Gulen, a former ally of Erdogan turned bitter rival, denies any involvement in Sledgehammer and in a corruption investigation against Erdogan associates that the prime minister accuses him of concocting to topple him."


So, then we have the last coup attempt and now the Gulenists have been rounded up...

And where were the Kemalists? On holidays, out of Turkey, making sure they weren't implicated in the coup attempt.

Revenge?

The thing about Gulenism is that it runs schools in Turkey and around the world. My own "source" told me that these international schools are set up in Muslim countries where the US has a problem setting up "fronts" for its intelligence operations.

Has Erdogan been co-opted by US backed Kemalists? The Kemalists are secularists and they fear the rise of Islam in Turkey so they needed someone who was popular among Muslims to keep power. There is now a new Presidential palace inside a national park formerly land given to the Turkish people by Ataturk.

What's next? The problem under the present constitution is that the President exercises no political power. There is now going to be a new constitution giving him powers formerly exercised by the Prime Minister. This would be necessary if one were concerned that the Turkish parliament was subject to being overrun by Muslims...

It's all smoke an mirrors and my guess is that we don't know even a quarter of the truth about this. I suspect that the US supported Erdogan and Gulen, thinking they were a "nice Muslim" party like the Muslim Brotherhood, but then realised over time that they were mistaken. Erdogan himself has been quoted as saying that democracy is only good as long as it takes you where you want it to. Maybe he feels the same way about Islam.


"The clearest way for Erdogan to subordinate the military while safeguarding its effectiveness will be to turn to its most secular members." https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/...-kemalists

Interesting times.
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19-03-2017, 07:26 AM
RE: Demagogoe or democrat?- Reis - Erdogan movie
Umm, that's one of the worst IMDB ratings I've ever seen, dude Blink

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19-03-2017, 09:02 AM
RE: Demagogoe or democrat?- Reis - Erdogan movie
(19-03-2017 07:26 AM)cactus Wrote:  Umm, that's one of the worst IMDB ratings I've ever seen, dude Blink

Propaganda anyone? No

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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19-03-2017, 09:03 AM
RE: Demagogoe or democrat?- Reis - Erdogan movie
A German satire show tore it apart last week.

Pure propaganda, obviously.
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21-03-2017, 11:10 AM
RE: Demagogoe or democrat?- Reis - Erdogan movie
Yes, it's propaganda.

I feel there is a move afoot in Turkey to keep tabs on Erdogan. It has a "deep state". The constitution gives the military ultimate power.

I had an idea of Turkey that it had some kind of crazy man called Ataturk who was like a demagogue but the more I read about him I realized that Ataturk was an anti-Muslim pro-West secularist and that he ended the Islamic Caliphate which had at one point invaded all the way to Spain and Vienna. The military are still secular but I feel US policy to support "moderate Islam" took Turkey down the wrong road.
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21-03-2017, 11:28 AM
RE: Demagogoe or democrat?- Reis - Erdogan movie
Reminds of another crap movie from 1980 which shows a certain Saddam Hussein as some sort of heroic figure..... Long Days ( a long boring movie more like )

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346549/plot..._=tt_ov_pl

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21-03-2017, 11:33 AM
RE: Demagogoe or democrat?- Reis - Erdogan movie
(21-03-2017 11:10 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Yes, it's propaganda.

I feel there is a move afoot in Turkey to keep tabs on Erdogan. It has a "deep state". The constitution gives the military ultimate power.

I had an idea of Turkey that it had some kind of crazy man called Ataturk who was like a demagogue but the more I read about him I realized that Ataturk was an anti-Muslim pro-West secularist and that he ended the Islamic Caliphate which had at one point invaded all the way to Spain and Vienna. The military are still secular but I feel US policy to support "moderate Islam" took Turkey down the wrong road.

Atatürk was a general. He wasn't anti-Muslim in the sense of the word. He only felt that secularism was the way to go to move the country into the 20th century. Pretty much in the same way, France is a secular country.

But it's wrong to assume that Turkey marching for Vienna was mainly fueled by religion. It was the expansionist Ottoman dynasty, who wanted to extend their influence over Europe and broaden their strategic position. They already held large parts of Hungary after all, and Vienna offered access to all the major trade routes of the continent. At the same time the Ottoman empire was the most tolerant of it's time when it came to religious minorities. They forced noone into becoming muslim, and in fact, christians could rise to higher office.

Same goes for the old Caliphates of Spain, which had nothing to do with Turkey or the Ottomans. They were tolerant, and, compared to theiir western neighbours, very advanced. The reason for this, again, they made no difference between muslim, christian or jews. So they actually preserved and advanced science, as opposed to their christian neighbours. There was only a brief period in the Middle Ages when a Marrokan equivalent of the Taliban invaded and took over.
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