Democrats to offer a "Better Deal"
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26-07-2017, 08:18 AM
RE: Democrats to offer a "Better Deal"
(26-07-2017 07:08 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(25-07-2017 08:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Wow. And Trump said in two weeks they'd have something which was "wondeful for all Americans" (healthcare).. even though they failed for 7 years.

He's just taking his time so we all don't overdose from too much winning.

"too much winning" Laughat

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26-07-2017, 05:24 PM
RE: Democrats to offer a "Better Deal"
(26-07-2017 01:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  That's you. Other people could easily feel differently even if they wouldn't use word oppression .

I guess for some work isn't something they look forward to but rather something they must do to live, hence oppression, even if different word should be used to describe this.
Well yes that's exactly my point though, a different word should be used because labelling "having a job" as "oppression" is hyperbolic, definitionally inaccurate, and kind of disrespectful to people who have been and still are actually oppressed. It seems like there is more than a bit of Nirvana fallacy kicking around in there.

I just don't see any rational or evidentiary basis for such an assertion, though I'm not omniscient obviously so I could be missing something.

(26-07-2017 01:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It's voluntary only as far that no human force you -
Yes, but that's really what counts when it comes to systems of oppression, isn't it? I mean I can't fly no matter how much I might want to but that doesn't mean gravity is an oppressive system. This is why I raised my objection/confusion because how we frame something and talk about it is important.


(26-07-2017 01:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  you just must work if you wan't to live (in Poland at least you won't get unemployment benefits for life).
That seems....reasonable to me? I mean barring physical impairment or disability or what have you I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that if you want to take something out, and you are perfectly able to put something in, then you should have to put something in.
The guy who shows up at a potluck dinner with nothing but napkins is kinda viewed as an asshole ain't he?

(26-07-2017 01:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  There's also may be issue of workers not having much choice but to stay in firm where owner is crooked and state not being interested in doing something to fix it, coupled with courts too ineffective to give justice to workers.
Oh absolutely, there are always going to be variables, just a few years ago they did a poll of small business owners and the majority of them said it was much harder to start a business which makes it much much harder for workers to quit shitty jobs and start their own. Just as a single example.

BUT.....he wasn't talking about shitty job with bad employers being "oppression" (which even then it's not but still) employment itself was oppression.


(26-07-2017 01:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It looks to me like echo of Marx theory about work alienating man
Ahhh gotcha, that makes sense. I mean not what Marx was saying but his line of argument. It's still nonsensical, hyperbolic, with no real factual support in my opinion but I understand now. Thanks Szuchow! I appreciate it. Smile


(26-07-2017 01:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  - work became commodity which means that worker himself became commodity who is forced to sell himself for market wages, which wages barely cover cost of living.[...]Worker works not to satisfy his need of work but cause he must earn to live. [Leszek Kołakowski, Main Currents of Marxism: Its Rise, Growth and Dissolution Volume 1: The Founders*, p.134-135 of Polish 2009 edition]
Brother...you do NOT need to sell me on Leszek Kołakowski the man was a goddamn intellectual powerhouse. Not just oen of the greatest Polish thinkers of the last 100 years but one of the greatest thinkers full stop.

(26-07-2017 01:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Or to put it differently but at least somewhat in line with Marx - work is oppression cause it leave no place for enjoyment of life, cause it made you do things you don't enjoy just so you can live another day to go back to work doing things that you don't enjoy...
If I had to offer a quick off the top of my head counter argument to that I'd say sounds an awful lot like a flat out assertion based on the personal experiences of a person who historically really just didn't wanna be productive or work, do whatever he wanted and make other people deal with the consequences. Maybe that's unfair, I'm not as well read in politics as I am on religion, but it sounds like a lazy shit trying to justify being a lazy shit. I know I'm attributing motive and I don't like to do that but like I said it's just a gut reaction and off the top of my head.
Like me personally, for example, I spent years working to get an education and developing skill sets and the job I have now, which I love, allows me to live a MUCH more enjoyable and comfortable life than if I just stopped working.

I don't wanna take pot shots at a dead man because that seems unfair but I'm pretty convinced that Marx would have had a MUCH less comfortable and enjoyable life refusing to work ...if the people around him stopped giving him free shit and paying for him. It seems really easy to claim work is "oppression" when you have never been in the position where an employer providing you with a job is the only thing keeping you from starving to death.

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27-07-2017, 01:57 AM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2017 02:54 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Democrats to offer a "Better Deal"
(26-07-2017 05:24 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Well yes that's exactly my point though, a different word should be used because labelling "having a job" as "oppression" is hyperbolic, definitionally inaccurate, and kind of disrespectful to people who have been and still are actually oppressed. It seems like there is more than a bit of Nirvana fallacy kicking around in there.

I can get from where this is coming but I wouldn't call needing to have a job oppression even if there are plenty of oppressive workplaces.

Quote:I just don't see any rational or evidentiary basis for such an assertion, though I'm not omniscient obviously so I could be missing something.

Marxist basis probably.

Quote:Yes, but that's really what counts when it comes to systems of oppression, isn't it? I mean I can't fly no matter how much I might want to but that doesn't mean gravity is an oppressive system. This is why I raised my objection/confusion because how we frame something and talk about it is important.

Depends on how you look at things - economy is no less a harsh mistress than other people but it it possible at least in theory to make Guaranteed minimum income universal thing and leave work for those who want to do it, while flying is realm of fantasy and you can't be oppressed by reality.

As I said above I get from where sentiment comes but I would describe it with other words.

Quote:That seems....reasonable to me? I mean barring physical impairment or disability or what have you I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that if you want to take something out, and you are perfectly able to put something in, then you should have to put something in.
The guy who shows up at a potluck dinner with nothing but napkins is kinda viewed as an asshole ain't he?

I never said it is unreasonable, it was meant to illustrate my example. You aren't forced to work (by other people) but you still must work if you wan't live, barring crime and being beggar.

Quote:Oh absolutely, there are always going to be variables, just a few years ago they did a poll of small business owners and the majority of them said it was much harder to start a business which makes it much much harder for workers to quit shitty jobs and start their own. Just as a single example.

I was thinking more about underpaid workers who must work in place x regardless of owner honesty cause there are no more places where they could got a job. Don't know about USA bit that and worse is not unheard off in Poland.

Quote:BUT.....he wasn't talking about shitty job with bad employers being "oppression" (which even then it's not but still) employment itself was oppression.

That makes parts of our conversation null I suppose.

Quote:Ahhh gotcha, that makes sense. I mean not what Marx was saying but his line of argument. It's still nonsensical, hyperbolic, with no real factual support in my opinion but I understand now. Thanks Szuchow! I appreciate it. Smile

No problem.


Quote:Brother...you do NOT need to sell me on Leszek Kołakowski the man was a goddamn intellectual powerhouse. Not just oen of the greatest Polish thinkers of the last 100 years but one of the greatest thinkers full stop.

I primarily mentioned him to show from where I took info about work equal alienation thingy.

It's certainly good to see that Kołakowski isn't forgotten in this day and age.

Quote:If I had to offer a quick off the top of my head counter argument to that I'd say sounds an awful lot like a flat out assertion based on the personal experiences of a person who historically really just didn't wanna be productive or work, do whatever he wanted and make other people deal with the consequences. Maybe that's unfair, I'm not as well read in politics as I am on religion, but it sounds like a lazy shit trying to justify being a lazy shit. I know I'm attributing motive and I don't like to do that but like I said it's just a gut reaction and off the top of my head.
Like me personally, for example, I spent years working to get an education and developing skill sets and the job I have now, which I love, allows me to live a MUCH more enjoyable and comfortable life than if I just stopped working.

From what little I know situation of working class back in the time of Marx writing his things was, well calling it shitty would be understatement. If lifetime of toil really was only things that waited for workers then I'm not surprised at work itself being called oppression*. There were I suppose philosophical reasons for this stance too - Hegel and Feuerbach works were used.

Also there's no way that I would call Marx unproductive - his intellectual influence is colossal and that is thanks to his works. He just happened to born in epoch before grants for academic study Wink

Quote:I don't wanna take pot shots at a dead man because that seems unfair but I'm pretty convinced that Marx would have had a MUCH less comfortable and enjoyable life refusing to work ...if the people around him stopped giving him free shit and paying for him.

Probably.

Quote:It seems really easy to claim work is "oppression" when you have never been in the position where an employer providing you with a job is the only thing keeping you from starving to death.

It's not like employer do it from goodness of his heart - he provides you with nothing, he pays you for work done. And gong by my admittedly small knowledge of the times pay wasn't fair.

*Work as oppression is my reading of Marx (or rather Kołakowski) not necessarily what man himself would say. Marx in quoted fragment spoke about alienation.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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27-07-2017, 06:09 AM
RE: Democrats to offer a "Better Deal"
(24-07-2017 05:25 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  A better deal: Better Jobs. Better ingredients. Better Pizza. Papa Johns.

They're being clowned for this new slogan all over Twitter and Facebook.

They'll probably drop it soon.

Smile


Hmmmmmm.

This is odd.. Each time I hit "new reply" it keeps bringing up this quoted post..

Even left and came back... Still same thing....

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27-07-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: Democrats to offer a "Better Deal"
It's almost impossible to live without money. The monetary system is forced upon us. It's by no means hyberbole to call that oppression. Every time someone says thank god it's Friday or they hate mondays they're talking about 30 plus years of their lives being pissed away doing something they hate. That's a GOVERNMENT structure imposed on us. It's almost impossible to escape. Failure to comply equals death. "Don't work don't eat." Billions and billions and apparently billions to come have their lives destroyed and just like those creepy pictures of China's Cultural Revolution we put these stupid meaningless smiles on our faces as we subject ourselves to daily dehumanizations for decades and die refusing to see that every dollar you earned is a symbol of your own oppression. Anxiety sleep disorders depression child abuse spousal abuse suicide all of it almost certainly ties in with the frustration of work and being trapped in this horrible system that's designed to ruin your life. That people actually get some kind of sense of self worth through negotiating this pathetic system really brings home the depth of brainwashing.
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27-07-2017, 07:47 AM
RE: Democrats to offer a "Better Deal"
(27-07-2017 06:39 AM)ImFred Wrote:  It's almost impossible to live without money. The monetary system is forced upon us. It's by no means hyberbole to call that oppression. Every time someone says thank god it's Friday or they hate mondays they're talking about 30 plus years of their lives being pissed away doing something they hate. That's a GOVERNMENT structure imposed on us. It's almost impossible to escape. Failure to comply equals death. "Don't work don't eat." Billions and billions and apparently billions to come have their lives destroyed and just like those creepy pictures of China's Cultural Revolution we put these stupid meaningless smiles on our faces as we subject ourselves to daily dehumanizations for decades and die refusing to see that every dollar you earned is a symbol of your own oppression. Anxiety sleep disorders depression child abuse spousal abuse suicide all of it almost certainly ties in with the frustration of work and being trapped in this horrible system that's designed to ruin your life. That people actually get some kind of sense of self worth through negotiating this pathetic system really brings home the depth of brainwashing.

Yabbut, before government forced us to work, people worked really hard to make the soil produce food for them... people have always had to work for a living. And in most cases it's easier today than it used to be.

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27-07-2017, 07:56 AM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2017 08:01 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Democrats to offer a "Better Deal"
(27-07-2017 06:39 AM)ImFred Wrote:  It's almost impossible to live without money. The monetary system is forced upon us. It's by no means hyberbole to call that oppression.

People don't do the things which need to be done, but which they don't enjoy, unless you pay them. Payment is compensation for their sacrifice of time and effort. Also, you typically don't have to pay people to do the things which need to be done but which they enjoy, or are otherwise already motivated to do. And the competition for the most enjoyable jobs is so high they are mostly unobtainable to all but the most talented and beautiful.

What may be oppression is people appropriating more of the created wealth than they have actually earned themselves by any reasonable measure.
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27-07-2017, 08:05 AM
RE: Democrats to offer a "Better Deal"
(27-07-2017 07:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 06:39 AM)ImFred Wrote:  It's almost impossible to live without money. The monetary system is forced upon us. It's by no means hyberbole to call that oppression. Every time someone says thank god it's Friday or they hate mondays they're talking about 30 plus years of their lives being pissed away doing something they hate. That's a GOVERNMENT structure imposed on us. It's almost impossible to escape. Failure to comply equals death. "Don't work don't eat." Billions and billions and apparently billions to come have their lives destroyed and just like those creepy pictures of China's Cultural Revolution we put these stupid meaningless smiles on our faces as we subject ourselves to daily dehumanizations for decades and die refusing to see that every dollar you earned is a symbol of your own oppression. Anxiety sleep disorders depression child abuse spousal abuse suicide all of it almost certainly ties in with the frustration of work and being trapped in this horrible system that's designed to ruin your life. That people actually get some kind of sense of self worth through negotiating this pathetic system really brings home the depth of brainwashing.

Yabbut, before government forced us to work, people worked really hard to make the soil produce food for them... people have always had to work for a living. And in most cases it's easier today than it used to be.

Subsistence existence like that of a peasant has been criminalized to ensure our dependence on the ownership class for survival.

Who knows what's easier? I've read that hunter gathers had much more free time.
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27-07-2017, 08:09 AM
RE: Democrats to offer a "Better Deal"
(27-07-2017 07:56 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 06:39 AM)ImFred Wrote:  It's almost impossible to live without money. The monetary system is forced upon us. It's by no means hyberbole to call that oppression.

People don't do the things which need to be done, but which they don't enjoy, unless you pay them. Payment is compensation for their sacrifice of time and effort. Also, you typically don't have to pay people to do the things which need to be done but which they enjoy, or are otherwise already motivated to do. And the competition for the most enjoyable jobs is so high they are mostly unobtainable to all but the most talented and beautiful.

What may be oppression is people appropriating more of the created wealth than they have actually earned themselves by any reasonable measure.

It's that way intentionally. There's infinite variations on how it COULD be. Sadly, this is the hellish paradigm in which we're trapped.
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27-07-2017, 08:47 AM
RE: Democrats to offer a "Better Deal"
(27-07-2017 07:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 06:39 AM)ImFred Wrote:  It's almost impossible to live without money. The monetary system is forced upon us. It's by no means hyberbole to call that oppression. Every time someone says thank god it's Friday or they hate mondays they're talking about 30 plus years of their lives being pissed away doing something they hate. That's a GOVERNMENT structure imposed on us. It's almost impossible to escape. Failure to comply equals death. "Don't work don't eat." Billions and billions and apparently billions to come have their lives destroyed and just like those creepy pictures of China's Cultural Revolution we put these stupid meaningless smiles on our faces as we subject ourselves to daily dehumanizations for decades and die refusing to see that every dollar you earned is a symbol of your own oppression. Anxiety sleep disorders depression child abuse spousal abuse suicide all of it almost certainly ties in with the frustration of work and being trapped in this horrible system that's designed to ruin your life. That people actually get some kind of sense of self worth through negotiating this pathetic system really brings home the depth of brainwashing.

Yabbut, before government forced us to work, people worked really hard to make the soil produce food for them... people have always had to work for a living. And in most cases it's easier today than it used to be.

OSHA would have a shitfit if they saw the mortality rates of spearhunters. We've got it much easier in many senses.
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