Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
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06-11-2013, 05:47 AM
Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
Good day Atheists,

I have known a few irl, and spoke to many online about the same subjects. Denial.

I am a scientist, an engineer and a free thinker, there is no subject I do not try to dwell some time upon if the occasion arises.

Belief is a very common discussion that takes place (I am sure you are aware), the belief of a notion that has little or no evidence.

I personally consider organised religion as a fallacy that needs to be stopped, and stand proudly alongside my friends of learning in creating our own little belief structure, I believe if i put my hand in this hot water it is going to burn me, I have no evidence YET, but I am pretty sure of it.. I make this belief based upon evidence found from previous experiments.

Traditional beliefs, talk about supernatural figures of one sort or another, of which there is no evidence and they create stories to try and provide evidence. (There is a god the bible tells me all the things he has done, so that proves it)

From what I see from (I apologise to call it this, however this is what it has become, due to people not understanding the concepts) the hysteria of atheism is that this belief of the non existence of any supernatural figure has become pretty much identical to the traditional belief, simply due to the simple reasoning of statements like "the bibles false so there is no god" and "there is no evidence of god, so god does not exist". And the constant strive to prove the religious groups false just forms the class of person that claims they are an atheist, into an identical party to the religieous group.

What I am saying is that atheism has become a church unto itself, the declamations of God are based on the same amount of evidence that the belief of god is based. And the constant statements of the lack of evidence making you think this or that, have turned the argument into a contradictory, hypocritical mess.

I am agnostic, the true belief of scientists, without guaranteed rock solid, testable, repeatable proof that there is nothing supernatural.. I cannot rule out the presence of such a force.. Without complete understanding of the universe, we have no evidence that there is, or that there isn't a supernatural force that exists. And the aim of science is never to prove or disprove the existence of God, but if it finds it....

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I would like to hear your thoughts on whether we agnostics are wrong to hold our views, whether we are clinging onto ideas from history for comfort, or whether you consider our approach to be a reasonably justified one.

I have not meant to have a 'go' at your belief, and I am disappointed at my limitation in my language that may convey this, I only described my view of hysteria as many people who claim to be atheist have no real understanding of the concept and the belief system they are claiming to hold.
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06-11-2013, 09:57 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  What I am saying is that atheism has become a church unto itself, the declamations of God are based on the same amount of evidence that the belief of god is based. And the constant statements of the lack of evidence making you think this or that, have turned the argument into a contradictory, hypocritical mess.

No, I have no belief in any gods because there is no evidence of them.
This is not the same as believing there are no gods. That would be a faith claim.

Quote:I am agnostic, the true belief of scientists, without guaranteed rock solid, testable, repeatable proof that there is nothing supernatural.. I cannot rule out the presence of such a force.. Without complete understanding of the universe, we have no evidence that there is, or that there isn't a supernatural force that exists. And the aim of science is never to prove or disprove the existence of God, but if it finds it....

And most of the atheists here are agnostic atheists, as you appear to be.

Quote:Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The absence of evidence that should be there is evidence of absence.

Quote:I would like to hear your thoughts on whether we agnostics are wrong to hold our views, whether we are clinging onto ideas from history for comfort, or whether you consider our approach to be a reasonably justified one.

I have not meant to have a 'go' at your belief, and I am disappointed at my limitation in my language that may convey this, I only described my view of hysteria as many people who claim to be atheist have no real understanding of the concept and the belief system they are claiming to hold.

Please provide some evidence for atheism being a 'belief system'. Because it's not.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-11-2013, 10:06 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2013 06:47 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
The absence of belief is not belief in absence.

Dismissal of preposterous notions such as the actual reality of sparkly pink unicorns, 1957 Chevies orbiting Pluto, the gods, devils, angels, teapots orbiting the sun require no expenditure of intellectual attention or energy. Saying "I don't really know if there is a teapot orbiting the sun, but there *could* be one, is the same position as agnosticism, and deserves as much energy expenditure...none.

The is no coherent definition of the word "god". When and if someone cooks one up, maybe I'll stop what I'm doing and pay it 2 seconds of attention, but I'm not promising anything.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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06-11-2013, 10:07 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(06-11-2013 09:57 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  What I am saying is that atheism has become a church unto itself, the declamations of God are based on the same amount of evidence that the belief of god is based. And the constant statements of the lack of evidence making you think this or that, have turned the argument into a contradictory, hypocritical mess.

No, I have no belief in any gods because there is no evidence of them.
This is not the same as believing there are no gods. That would be a faith claim.

Quote:I am agnostic, the true belief of scientists, without guaranteed rock solid, testable, repeatable proof that there is nothing supernatural.. I cannot rule out the presence of such a force.. Without complete understanding of the universe, we have no evidence that there is, or that there isn't a supernatural force that exists. And the aim of science is never to prove or disprove the existence of God, but if it finds it....

And most of the atheists here are agnostic atheists, as you appear to be.

Quote:Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The absence of evidence that should be there is evidence of absence.

Quote:I would like to hear your thoughts on whether we agnostics are wrong to hold our views, whether we are clinging onto ideas from history for comfort, or whether you consider our approach to be a reasonably justified one.

I have not meant to have a 'go' at your belief, and I am disappointed at my limitation in my language that may convey this, I only described my view of hysteria as many people who claim to be atheist have no real understanding of the concept and the belief system they are claiming to hold.

Please provide some evidence for atheism being a 'belief system'. Because it's not.

How is it that every "agnostic" who comes here is the most dogmatic and condescending type, always telling everyone else not only what we supposedly believe but that we are all wrong and deluded and only they have the "Truth" just as bad as the theists. I have never met an agnostic in real life with this much arrogance but here they all seem to come in this flavor.

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06-11-2013, 10:07 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
I kind of understand what you mean, but like Chas said, it's not a belief system. There is no belief involved.

I think the reason for, as you've put it, hysteria, is because there is hysteria ten-fold from believers. In order to be heard at all, we atheists have to make as much stink as possible, since Christians have their fingers jammed so far into their ears, they can't hear a damn thing. Not to mention, many believers are so anti-science it's infuriating. I feel like that's what we find ourselves arguing about moreso than evidence for or against an actual deity. We're constantly having to tell them about the origins of their own holy books and holidays, AND trying to explain how evolution *actually* works.

Honestly I think it's a well-warranted hysteria because, to me, it all just boils down to education.

Yeah, I AM trying to prove them false.
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06-11-2013, 10:21 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
I recently self evolved from Theist to Agnostic to Atheist.
I tried hard and read lots to reclaim my faith and was happy stay agnostic, but the evidence found was either for a psychopathic overlord, who had the worst biographer in recorded history (literally) .
or it was fiction and fables with some historical context.
So there may be a case for deism , but the existing god/gods as man describes, is to me 100% BS.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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06-11-2013, 10:47 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
Oh noes! Not the TrueBeliefofScientists!

Anything I claim beyond atheism is a lack of belief in gods is the moral philosophy of a single atheist. Heck with them that get confused. Tongue

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06-11-2013, 10:52 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2013 10:59 AM by grizzlysnake.)
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
I don't know boss. Most of us say that there is so very little evidence for a literal god it might as well not even exist. If shown solid proof, sure I would listen. Just don't expect worshipTongue

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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06-11-2013, 11:26 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
I think 100 years from now today's science will have been amended as much as it was the last 100 years.

In other words - we don't know shit - yet.

So I allow the possibility that there are things we just cannot perceive/measure yet.

Will we prove that there is something like a sky-daddy who reads your thoughts 24/7 - I don't think so. Tongue

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06-11-2013, 11:29 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  I am a scientist, an engineer and a free thinker...

I find it kind of strange that you're a scientist yet you seem to lack the ability to "rank" evidence. You cited the bible as the source of evidence for christians. The bible can't be evidence because relying on it for such would amount to circular reasoning. Jesus is god. Why? Because the bible says so. Why do you believe in the bible? Because the bible is the word of god.

To state that atheism has become like a religion, by virtue of the same mechanisms that christians use, is to equate the strength of evidence for christianity to the strength of the lack of evidence. This is absurd. I hope that made sense.

(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  ...the constant strive to prove the religious groups false just forms the class of person that claims they are an atheist, into an identical party to the religieous group.

Atheism is the rejection of theistic claims. It is in fact not the claim for the opposite position. The burden of proof is on the theists to substantiate their claims for a deity(s). I do recognise that there are zealous atheists like myself who would actively strike a conversation with my theist friends. This is only for catalytic purposes so the conversation can start. Atheists don't really proselytize. Your powers of observation seem to be lacking if you think that atheists behave identically to religious groups. Atheism is a religion/belief like off is a TV channel or not collecting stamps is a hobby.


(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  ...statements like "the bibles false so there is no god"...

The merit of the rejection of the existence of a god is not solely placed on the bible's flaws. It's a lot more comprehensive than that.

(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  ...the declamations of God are based on the same amount of evidence that the belief of god is based.

Again, atheism is a rejection of the evidence forth coming from theists. Atheism does not seek to find evidence. I think your misunderstanding largely stems from this false understanding of what atheism is. Atheism is the neutral position.

(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  I am agnostic, the true belief of scientists, without guaranteed rock solid, testable, repeatable proof that there is nothing supernatural.. I cannot rule out the presence of such a force.. Without complete understanding of the universe, we have no evidence that there is, or that there isn't a supernatural force that exists

Gnosticism and agnosticism are positions on knowledge. Gnostics believe that it is possible to have knowledge of a god. It is possible to understand the mind and will of a god. Agnostics believe that this is not possible. A god being would be too complex and/or far beyond our mortal grasp for example. Atheism and theism are positions on belief. Atheists do not believe that gods exist. Theists do. Therefore the different positions are not mutually exclusive. You can be an agnostic atheist as pointed out to you in a post above.

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