Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
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06-11-2013, 11:31 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(06-11-2013 10:07 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  How is it that every "agnostic" who comes here is the most dogmatic and condescending type, always telling everyone else not only what we supposedly believe but that we are all wrong and deluded and only they have the "Truth" just as bad as the theists. I have never met an agnostic in real life with this much arrogance but here they all seem to come in this flavor.

It's really quite bizarre.

People come along and say,
I am (agnostic/christian/buddhist, etc) and you atheists [because all of us on the forum are in utter accord on everything] are wrong because you claim to know [errr] and that requires (faith/special knowledge/arrogance, etc) [lolwut?] and therefore I'm better than that because I don't [um, okay then].

Lord knows we might attempt to be a little more good-natured about clarifying, but having seen the same show every previous night it's been playing, we end up rather disinclined to...

(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  From what I see from (I apologise to call it this, however this is what it has become, due to people not understanding the concepts) the hysteria of atheism is that this belief of the non existence of any supernatural figure has become pretty much identical to the traditional belief, simply due to the simple reasoning of statements like "the bibles false so there is no god" and "there is no evidence of god, so god does not exist". And the constant strive to prove the religious groups false just forms the class of person that claims they are an atheist, into an identical party to the religieous group.

Uh huh. Right.

'Cept there is no evidence for any specific God as claimed by any specific religion (not that the claims are coherent in the first place).

(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  What I am saying is that atheism has become a church unto itself...

Which is why we have hierarchies, doctrines, scriptures, prophets, and tax breaks. Yes.
Dodgy

(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  ... the declamations of God are based on the same amount of evidence that the belief of god is based.

Not... so much.

Those professing a God or Gods are the ones making claims. Under investigation those claims do not hold up. Therefore I reject the claims.

I am an agnostic in the sense that something big and vague and untestable might well exist or have existed. Deism? Sure, whatever floats your boat. Still multiplying entities without cause, but, s'not gonna incite a holy war any time soon.

This is not what is claimed by any religion. Religions make specific claims as to the nature of interventionist supernatural beings. There is no evidence of interventionist supernatural beings. Therefore there is no reason to suppose those claims to possess any validity.

You are a scientist. This is not complicated.

(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  And the constant statements of the lack of evidence making you think this or that, have turned the argument into a contradictory, hypocritical mess.

I am agnostic, the true belief of scientists, without guaranteed rock solid, testable, repeatable proof that there is nothing supernatural.. I cannot rule out the presence of such a force.. Without complete understanding of the universe, we have no evidence that there is, or that there isn't a supernatural force that exists. And the aim of science is never to prove or disprove the existence of God, but if it finds it....

You can and do. You can rule out 'such a force' existing in any of the manners for which it has been tested.

I'm going to make a few assumptions about you, the scientist, engineer, and freethinker. They are as follows:
You don't check for fairies under your car before you start it.
You don't offer the blood of a white bull when a new head of state takes office.
You don't fast on holy days.
You don't offer prayer in lieu of medical treatment.
You don't set aside the first serving of each meal for the local kami.

Why don't you do these things? Do you have absolute certain knowledge that they won't help you?

Or is it merely that there is no credible evidence for them having any demonstrable efficacy?

Every test ever of so-called 'supernatural' influence has been a null. Will there be a null result next time? Probably. But as you say, nobody knows with absolute certainty. I do not know of any atheist who has ever claimed to know anything with absolute certainty.

(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It is not sufficient to draw conclusions with absolute certainty.

Should it inform one's conclusions?

You bet your ass it should.

(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  I would like to hear your thoughts on whether we agnostics are wrong to hold our views, whether we are clinging onto ideas from history for comfort, or whether you consider our approach to be a reasonably justified one.

I have not meant to have a 'go' at your belief, and I am disappointed at my limitation in my language that may convey this, I only described my view of hysteria as many people who claim to be atheist have no real understanding of the concept and the belief system they are claiming to hold.

Yeah. Citation needed. Hysteria?

Who is doing this? Who are you actually addressing here? Why do you feel the need to address 'us' so passive-aggressively? And for that matter, where do these 'us' and 'you' constructions come from? Your ass?

Because you keep talking about "atheists" and "some atheists" and "you atheists", and all I got is...
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... this is my signature!
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06-11-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  Good day Atheists,

I have known a few irl, and spoke to many online about the same subjects. Denial.

I am a scientist, an engineer and a free thinker, there is no subject I do not try to dwell some time upon if the occasion arises.

Belief is a very common discussion that takes place (I am sure you are aware), the belief of a notion that has little or no evidence.

I personally consider organised religion as a fallacy that needs to be stopped, and stand proudly alongside my friends of learning in creating our own little belief structure, I believe if i put my hand in this hot water it is going to burn me, I have no evidence YET, but I am pretty sure of it.. I make this belief based upon evidence found from previous experiments.

Traditional beliefs, talk about supernatural figures of one sort or another, of which there is no evidence and they create stories to try and provide evidence. (There is a god the bible tells me all the things he has done, so that proves it)

From what I see from (I apologise to call it this, however this is what it has become, due to people not understanding the concepts) the hysteria of atheism is that this belief of the non existence of any supernatural figure has become pretty much identical to the traditional belief, simply due to the simple reasoning of statements like "the bibles false so there is no god" and "there is no evidence of god, so god does not exist". And the constant strive to prove the religious groups false just forms the class of person that claims they are an atheist, into an identical party to the religieous group.

What I am saying is that atheism has become a church unto itself, the declamations of God are based on the same amount of evidence that the belief of god is based. And the constant statements of the lack of evidence making you think this or that, have turned the argument into a contradictory, hypocritical mess.

I am agnostic, the true belief of scientists, without guaranteed rock solid, testable, repeatable proof that there is nothing supernatural.. I cannot rule out the presence of such a force.. Without complete understanding of the universe, we have no evidence that there is, or that there isn't a supernatural force that exists. And the aim of science is never to prove or disprove the existence of God, but if it finds it....

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I would like to hear your thoughts on whether we agnostics are wrong to hold our views, whether we are clinging onto ideas from history for comfort, or whether you consider our approach to be a reasonably justified one.

I have not meant to have a 'go' at your belief, and I am disappointed at my limitation in my language that may convey this, I only described my view of hysteria as many people who claim to be atheist have no real understanding of the concept and the belief system they are claiming to hold.

No.

Anti-abortionists believe that abortion is wrong and many have grouped together to take action based upon that belief. Therefore, they are a religion. No That logic doesn't work, does it...

Obviously, merely holding a common belief does not make a religion. It requires a deity or at least some form of spirituality in order to differentiate it from being just any other organization. Atheism has neither. In fact, atheism doesn't even have a belief - it's the absence of belief in a god or gods.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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06-11-2013, 01:53 PM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
Dodgy

Well PresumptuousTruth, since you've come to what you must surely "believe" is some sort of online church or temple...

Welcome to the forum. Smile

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06-11-2013, 02:10 PM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2013 02:14 PM by Losty.)
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
How many new theists have joined in the last few days? Most of them never come back and comment on the threads they make. At least 2 are named Truth. Seems suspicious.

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06-11-2013, 09:21 PM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
We can say that the likelihood of any of the proposed gods being real is so small as to be ignored due to their holy books being self-contradicting, at odds with known facts about the world, and the impossibility of the deities possessing their claimed attributes (e.g. the problem of evil for Yahweh). While the supernatural cannot be ruled out, the fact that it has never been observed means we can continue to ignore it along with unicorns and ghosts.

We need not claim to be agnostic as long as we define the deities in the way religion has.
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06-11-2013, 10:48 PM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
From now on, whenever we get a drive-by, I'm just going to post this image... Dodgy

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07-11-2013, 01:35 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(06-11-2013 09:21 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  We need not claim to be agnostic as long as we define the deities in the way religion has.

My deity defined herself and I got to watch. Heart

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07-11-2013, 01:43 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 01:35 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(06-11-2013 09:21 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  We need not claim to be agnostic as long as we define the deities in the way religion has.

My deity defined herself and I got to watch. Heart

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07-11-2013, 01:45 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
Quit it. We're gonna derail this important thread. Dodgy

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07-11-2013, 02:39 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  Belief is a very common discussion that takes place (I am sure you are aware), the belief of a notion that has little or no evidence.

That's the nub of the issue isn't it? Supernaturalism isn't an evidence-based metaphysic. Most people haven't witnessed miracles or had encounters with gods, angels and demons and there are no reliable accounts of any such occurrences.

Quote:I believe if i put my hand in this hot water it is going to burn me, I have no evidence YET, but I am pretty sure of it.. I make this belief based upon evidence found from previous experiments.


But even if you never burnt your hand you can find people that have burned their hands with hot water. There are also well-documented cases of water burns that you would be able to find in hospital records.

Contrast that with supernatural claims.

Quote:Traditional beliefs, talk about supernatural figures of one sort or another, of which there is no evidence and they create stories to try and provide evidence. (There is a god the bible tells me all the things he has done, so that proves it)

The stories aren't really part of the evidence they are part of the claims themselves and those are supported by faith.

Quote:From what I see from (I apologise to call it this, however this is what it has become, due to people not understanding the concepts) the hysteria of atheism is that this belief of the non existence of any supernatural figure has become pretty much identical to the traditional belief, simply due to the simple reasoning of statements like "the bibles false so there is no god" and "there is no evidence of god, so god does not exist". And the constant strive to prove the religious groups false just forms the class of person that claims they are an atheist, into an identical party to the religieous group.

Are you saying that atheists assert more than they are epistemically entitled to do so? Are you referring to atheists that say they are 100% certain are no gods? There is something called positive atheism and not all atheists are positive atheists. I think even Dawkins says that he does not possess 100% certainty that there are no deities.

Quote:What I am saying is that atheism has become a church unto itself, the declamations of God are based on the same amount of evidence that the belief of god is based. And the constant statements of the lack of evidence making you think this or that, have turned the argument into a contradictory, hypocritical mess.

You need more than non-belief in deity to form a church in the same way that you need more than belief in deity to form a church. Even theism alone--a belief in the existence of some deity--is insufficient to form a religion. Neither atheism nor theism alone form belief systems, they are just solitary beliefs. The opposite of atheism isn't religion, its theism. Nothing follows from theism or atheism simpliciter. Think about it. If I merely claim "some God exists". What then? I have no doctrinal content: I don't know what this God expects of me, I don't know how I am supposed to treat others, I don't know if it wants to be worshipped and how etc. There is a similar situation for atheism. No gods exist. What then? I have no doctrinal content in this case either.

Quote:I am agnostic, the true belief of scientists, without guaranteed rock solid, testable, repeatable proof that there is nothing supernatural.. I cannot rule out the presence of such a force.. Without complete understanding of the universe, we have no evidence that there is, or that there isn't a supernatural force that exists. And the aim of science is never to prove or disprove the existence of God, but if it finds it....

Agreed. I too consider myself agnostic because I don't believe I have grounds for certitude. But that is not to say that supernaturalism is probable. I would suggest that the evidence in favour of supernaturalism is very weak and the evidence for naturalism is overwhelmingly strong.

Quote:I would like to hear your thoughts on whether we agnostics are wrong to hold our views, whether we are clinging onto ideas from history for comfort, or whether you consider our approach to be a reasonably justified one.

I think agnosticism is justifiable. But bear in mind that you are atheistic with respect to all of the deities you have learnt about so there is a sense in which you are atheistic.

Quote:I have not meant to have a 'go' at your belief, and I am disappointed at my limitation in my language that may convey this, I only described my view of hysteria as many people who claim to be atheist have no real understanding of the concept and the belief system they are claiming to hold.

Neither atheism nor theism simpliciter are belief systems they are single beliefs that are both inconsequential. Both need other beliefs attached to them to have any effect on peoples' lives. Not even divine command morality comes with theism, that comes from either a claim that the deity told someone how we are supposed to behave and they wrote it down or from some other idea such as natural theology.

Neither atheism or theism are religions.
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