Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
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07-11-2013, 02:42 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 01:45 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Quit it. We're gonna derail this important thread. Dodgy

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07-11-2013, 03:11 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 02:39 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(06-11-2013 05:47 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  Belief is a very common discussion that takes place (I am sure you are aware), the belief of a notion that has little or no evidence.

That's the nub of the issue isn't it? Supernaturalism isn't an evidence-based metaphysic. Most people haven't witnessed miracles or had encounters with gods, angels and demons and there are no reliable accounts of any such occurrences.

When I stood before the creator of the universe, I had no sense that god was anything other than natural. As an atheist, I am comfortable with the explanation that the three hours I went there were three seconds of full sensory hallucination. As a prophet, I can say god does not exist.

As an atheist prophet, Richard Dawkins succeeds twice. Raising the rabble for atheism (prolly what the OP is talking about), but more importantly for educating us about memes. As a theologist, Richard Dawkins kinda sux. But when Chas calls theology the empty set, he ain't exactly lying. Big Grin

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07-11-2013, 03:13 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(06-11-2013 01:53 PM)kim Wrote:  Dodgy

Well PresumptuousTruth, since you've come to what you must surely "believe" is some sort of online church or temple...

Welcome to the forum. Smile

I apologise, for seeming to treat it as such, this was not my intent.

MY intent was to see how a group of atheists with the full denial of any form of god (beyond personal preference) feel about those who declare themselves agnostics.

And yes, I can't help but 'stereotype' atheists, as one word cannot cover the beliefs or viewpoints of all that have found the current organised religion to be built on stories and circular reasoning. (I said theist use holy texts for their evidence, not that I use holy texts as evidence). I address the hysterical attitude that we all know that turns the view of atheism into nothing more than a cargo cult.

Like you said I appeared to address these forums as I would a church or temple of atheism, (I did not mean to) but some people WILL come here treating it as such. Such as lecturing self righteous theists and impressionable hysterical atheists.

I mentioned that many were flocking to the declaration of atheism, as the specific declaration of the non existence of god..

A prominent atheist Thomas Nagal said
" I am talking about something much deeper—namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers…. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that."

It is the same belief as those who want there to be a god.. surely the true denial of god is saying "Whether there is one or isn't, I couldn't care less" which i consider an agnostic view, which is heavily where i stand.
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07-11-2013, 03:31 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 03:13 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  (I said theist use holy texts for their evidence, not that I use holy texts as evidence)

There's a geometry for that, in my evidence-based metaphysic. Thumbsup

Does this mean you're not a driveby? Well, then, welcome to the forum.

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07-11-2013, 04:41 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2013 07:41 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 03:13 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  MY intent was to see how a group of atheists with the full denial of any form of god (beyond personal preference) feel about those who declare themselves agnostics.

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Agnosticism is a stance on knowledge, in this case, that knowledge of the existence of god/s isn't known or knowable. This is contrasted with Gnosticism, which would be the positive belief and claims to knowledge about god/s. Most theists it would seem are gnostic, while most atheists (including the ones on this forum) are agnostic.

This is probably tied to the fact that those who doubt because of a lack of empirical evidence and fallacious logic, are very unlikely to make baseless and unsupported claims to knowledge themselves. Likewise this also makes atheists who claim "full denial of any form of god" to be almost non-existent. I have never met an actual gnostic atheist, I've only ever seen theistic stawmen and caricatures. We can deny specific gods for specific reasons, like the logically impossible and contradictory mess that is Yahweh of the Abrahamic religions. You can deny that god, and be agnostic about the possibility of other god concepts or later evidence for something beyond our current understanding. But Yahweh? Most of us are almost certain that god doesn't exist at all, and we can give you plenty of reasons to back up that conclusion.

As for the converse of this? Compare that to the thousands of preacher, pastors, clerics, bishops, popes, televangelists, senators, and lay people; many of whom have no trouble telling you exactly who their god is, what he wants, will tolerate, with whom and to who, who you can love, and what you are allowed to do while naked and in the privacy of your own bedroom?

Yeah, I think we could all use a little more agnosticism. Most of us here are real fucking tired of people speaking on behalf of a god that doesn't appear to care enough to speak for itself... Drinking Beverage

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07-11-2013, 04:43 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 03:31 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 03:13 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  (I said theist use holy texts for their evidence, not that I use holy texts as evidence)

There's a geometry for that, in my evidence-based metaphysic. Thumbsup

Does this mean you're not a driveby? Well, then, welcome to the forum.

Thanking you very much for your welcome Smile sorry it had to start with a prime example of my bad writing ability Tongue
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07-11-2013, 04:48 AM
Re: RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 03:13 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  
(06-11-2013 01:53 PM)kim Wrote:  Dodgy

Well PresumptuousTruth, since you've come to what you must surely "believe" is some sort of online church or temple...

Welcome to the forum. Smile

I apologise, for seeming to treat it as such, this was not my intent.

MY intent was to see how a group of atheists with the full denial of any form of god (beyond personal preference) feel about those who declare themselves agnostics.

And yes, I can't help but 'stereotype' atheists, as one word cannot cover the beliefs or viewpoints of all that have found the current organised religion to be built on stories and circular reasoning. (I said theist use holy texts for their evidence, not that I use holy texts as evidence). I address the hysterical attitude that we all know that turns the view of atheism into nothing more than a cargo cult.

Like you said I appeared to address these forums as I would a church or temple of atheism, (I did not mean to) but some people WILL come here treating it as such. Such as lecturing self righteous theists and impressionable hysterical atheists.

I mentioned that many were flocking to the declaration of atheism, as the specific declaration of the non existence of god..

A prominent atheist Thomas Nagal said
" I am talking about something much deeper—namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers…. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that."

It is the same belief as those who want there to be a god.. surely the true denial of god is saying "Whether there is one or isn't, I couldn't care less" which i consider an agnostic view, which is heavily where i stand.

What makes you claim most calling themselves atheists have, full denial of any form of God.

You can help but not stereotyping any group... By asking over asserting beliefs and connections.

I do not know who Thomas Nagal is though. Do you affirm to the Thomas Huxley style of agnosticism? If so or not, what is your feeling on Agnostic atheism?

Many polls on this forum and elsewhere show, many people these days online in forums like this "flocking to the declaration of atheism" are of the: agnostic atheism, skeptical atheism, weak atheism fields. It's mixed, but usually the majority in these communities trend that way.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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07-11-2013, 04:58 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
There's a lot of repetition going on so far in this thread Sad

Welcome to the forum, PT.

I hope you find the truth that you pursue.

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07-11-2013, 05:06 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 04:58 AM)DLJ Wrote:  There's a lot of repetition going on so far in this thread Sad

Well, there's repetition, then, there's Gwynnies. Heart

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07-11-2013, 05:20 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 02:42 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 01:45 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Quit it. We're gonna derail this important thread. Dodgy

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