Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
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07-11-2013, 05:30 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 04:48 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  What makes you claim most calling themselves atheists have, full denial of any form of God.

You can help but not stereotyping any group... By asking over asserting beliefs and connections.

I do not know who Thomas Nagal is though. Do you affirm to the Thomas Huxley style of agnosticism? If so or not, what is your feeling on Agnostic atheism?

Many polls on this forum and elsewhere show, many people these days online in forums like this "flocking to the declaration of atheism" are of the: agnostic atheism, skeptical atheism, weak atheism fields. It's mixed, but usually the majority in these communities trend that way.

Well, the quotes from those who take up the standpoint, the words said. " there is no god" is a typical statement.

Stereotyping is a human trait, to make order of chaos, everyone does it, its hard not to..

I do not affirm to any style of agnosticism, I do not feel that I need someone else to tell me what my belief is or the understanding of my belief. I personally like Richard Dawkins thoughts on it with a scale of belief with theists on one side and atheists on the other. Agnostics stand in the middle.

I see where you are coming from though, but you miss where I am coming from.. the people I talk about 'flocking' to the declaration of atheism, are those that have not thought about it, have done it to annoy their parents, have done it to rebel against their idea of society.. They would not be able to fit themselves in any of your groups as they have done it for another reason. They are 'rebellion' atheists. Believing it just for the sake of rebellion. (Hell thats why some go to satanism, which is doubly ridiculous)
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07-11-2013, 05:37 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
I have never heard of anyone who has become an atheist *just* to rebel against their parents.
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07-11-2013, 05:52 AM
Re: RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 05:30 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 04:48 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  What makes you claim most calling themselves atheists have, full denial of any form of God.

You can help but not stereotyping any group... By asking over asserting beliefs and connections.

I do not know who Thomas Nagal is though. Do you affirm to the Thomas Huxley style of agnosticism? If so or not, what is your feeling on Agnostic atheism?

Many polls on this forum and elsewhere show, many people these days online in forums like this "flocking to the declaration of atheism" are of the: agnostic atheism, skeptical atheism, weak atheism fields. It's mixed, but usually the majority in these communities trend that way.

Well, the quotes from those who take up the standpoint, the words said. " there is no god" is a typical statement.

Stereotyping is a human trait, to make order of chaos, everyone does it, its hard not to..

I do not affirm to any style of agnosticism, I do not feel that I need someone else to tell me what my belief is or the understanding of my belief. I personally like Richard Dawkins thoughts on it with a scale of belief with theists on one side and atheists on the other. Agnostics stand in the middle.

I see where you are coming from though, but you miss where I am coming from.. the people I talk about 'flocking' to the declaration of atheism, are those that have not thought about it, have done it to annoy their parents, have done it to rebel against their idea of society.. They would not be able to fit themselves in any of your groups as they have done it for another reason. They are 'rebellion' atheists. Believing it just for the sake of rebellion. (Hell thats why some go to satanism, which is doubly ridiculous)

Then do you oppose the label of agnostic atheist though? Is it because you think atheist has a bad connotation connected to those people or do you find invalidity with the concept? The concept of which I mean, if you don't actively believe in a God/deity you are an atheist.

As for this atheist trend, Do you have any source of info that affirms this group as flocking or a growing hysteria? I'm not aware of it being much larger than before. In the 60/70s there was the rebellion of religion groups and it was strong in gen X as well... Many of those people would go back to their faith when grown up though. It's the Kirk Cameron and Lee Stroble life, of being "devout atheist" as said. I think it's been around as that for awhile but there's less social stigma around discussing religion.

I know of a guy I've worked with, and his GF who fit that criteria. Even does call himself a satanist and dress in their code. The thing is, satanism is a "religion" sorta, in the sense of being a core belief system that has ifs rituals.

But I don't know of any high growing trend of that movement. I've seen evidence of the type of community this forum is a strong link to.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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07-11-2013, 06:32 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
I can easily attribute the trend to my growing awareness of it.. so it is highly possible that I mistake the increasing amount people do so, with the increasing amount that I experience.

The label agnostic atheist to me would put that person in the belief that there is 'Probably not a god, but we cant prove or disprove it' burdening the delivery of proof onto the theism side. I prefer to sit right in the middle, as I don't want to be involved with either side in order to place the burden of proof on anyone other than me, otherwise that will be letting others tell me what to believe.
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07-11-2013, 06:54 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 03:13 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  I apologise, for seeming to treat it as such, this was not my intent.

MY intent was to see how a group of atheists with the full denial of any form of god (beyond personal preference) feel about those who declare themselves agnostics.

And yes, I can't help but 'stereotype' atheists, as one word cannot cover the beliefs or viewpoints of all that have found the current organised religion to be built on stories and circular reasoning. (I said theist use holy texts for their evidence, not that I use holy texts as evidence). I address the hysterical attitude that we all know that turns the view of atheism into nothing more than a cargo cult.

Like you said I appeared to address these forums as I would a church or temple of atheism, (I did not mean to) but some people WILL come here treating it as such. Such as lecturing self righteous theists and impressionable hysterical atheists.

I mentioned that many were flocking to the declaration of atheism, as the specific declaration of the non existence of god..

A prominent atheist Thomas Nagal said
" I am talking about something much deeper—namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers…. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that."

It is the same belief as those who want there to be a god.. surely the true denial of god is saying "Whether there is one or isn't, I couldn't care less" which i consider an agnostic view, which is heavily where i stand.

That's not agnosticism. It's called "apatheism".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-11-2013, 07:07 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2013 07:57 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
""Theism addresses the issue of belief. For any claim asserting the existence of a god, a theist is an individual who accepts (or positively believes) that the claim is true and an atheist (literally, "one without theism") is someone who does not.
Note that this doesn't mean that theists must accept any existence claim about any god. One can be a theist with respect to some claims and an atheist with respect to others. In particular, followers of one religion are typically atheists with respect to the gods of all other religions.
To be more precise about the issue of belief, consider the two possible claims one can make regarding the existence of a god:
The god exists.
The god does not exist.
There are two positions one can take with respect to either claim:
Belief or acceptance of the claim.
Disbelief or rejection of the claim.
For claim number 1 (the god exists), the theist takes the first position (belief), while the atheist takes the second (disbelief).
For claim number 2 (the god does not exist), the theist takes the second position (disbelief), while the atheist can hold either position (belief or disbelief).
...
1. Agnostic atheist
does not believe any god exists, but doesn't claim to know that no god exists
2. Gnostic atheist
believes that no god exists and claims to know that this belief is true
3. Agnostic theist
believes a god exists, but doesn't claim to know that this belief is true
4. Gnostic theist
believes a god exists and claims to know that this belief is true""
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...ning_terms

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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07-11-2013, 07:49 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 06:54 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That's not agnosticism. It's called "apatheism".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism

Yep. Does PursuingTruth believe in the existence of god/s? Do he/she accept them as a part of factual reality? If not, then he/she is not a theist, or an atheist (the prefix 'a' meaning 'to negate') by definition.

Atheism is simply the rejection of the positive claim of theism.

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07-11-2013, 12:40 PM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 07:49 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 06:54 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That's not agnosticism. It's called "apatheism".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism

Yep. Does PursuingTruth believe in the existence of god/s? Do he/she accept them as a part of factual reality? If not, then he/she is not a theist, or an atheist (the prefix 'a' meaning 'to negate') by definition.

Atheism is simply the rejection of the positive claim of theism.

Yes, but for people who want something to feel superior to, it's whatever sort of all-encompassing universal knowledge of non-existence they feel like (rightly) questioning.

The strawman amounts to, "nothing exists that we don't know about", which is self-evidently absurd and also - here's the catch - not something I have ever heard anyone say ever.

Perhaps it's down to ambiguity? Some (and I include myself) might be inclined to say things like "the supernatural does not exist". And I don't just mean because the definition of "supernatural" is physically incoherent (anything which causes interaction is strictly natural by definition).

I mean that every putative "supernatural" phenomenon ever proposed or investigated can be dismissed based on its advocates claims. This is, I would have thought, quite obviously implicit; one cannot deny or investigate a claim which has not been made. The caveat that "something might exist which no one has thought of and no one can investigate" is not worth adding explicitly.

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08-11-2013, 03:19 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(07-11-2013 06:54 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That's not agnosticism. It's called "apatheism".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism

Nice one.. I realign my description of my view .. I like that description! Definately me!

Apathetic agnosticism (also called pragmatic agnosticism) claims that any amount of debate can neither prove, nor disprove, the existence of one or more deities, and if one or more deities exist, they do not appear to be concerned about the fate of humans. Therefore, their existence has little to no impact on personal human affairs and should be of little theological interest.

For EvolutionKills

Aha this is a good wording of my issue with the hysteria of atheism, Religious nutjobs from long past always told us everything was the will of god, so if we cant see it, it doesnt exist. (i.e worlds around stars, photons etc)

The hysterical atheist are the ones saying "God does not exist as there is no evidence" which is equally as fallacious.
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08-11-2013, 04:51 AM
RE: Denial? Is this as much a religion as Belief?
(08-11-2013 03:19 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  The hysterical atheist are the ones saying "God does not exist as there is no evidence" which is equally as fallacious.

Except that if gods existed, as posited by many theists, there is certain evidence that we would expect to find. In this case, the lack of evidence we should expect to find if gods existed, is evidence of absence.

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