Denial of the amazing [long]
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15-06-2012, 05:26 PM
Denial of the amazing [long]
I've been an atheist since around age 12 or 13, and was somewhat agnostic for most of my time before then. I never believed in a heaven or hell, I merely wondered about the existence of a being that would have created the universe, not one that intervened within it.
I live in the U.K. and if I remember correctly, only around 30% of people in the U.K. are religious (and I was very shocked when I learned that the majority of people in governments worldwide are religious, that's a little scary in my opinion). This means that I've never really had any hardships with being atheist (other than being told off in school for colouring in Jesus' nose green (I figured there's snot up there, so it must be green, explaining that didn't help my case!)); however I have had an online friend who is a christian. She seemed very innocent, and I believe she was [unintentionally] brainwashed into religion. She had never received much love or affection, had mainly been rejected socially, and the first guy to show her the attention she wanted was a christian, and spent months convincing her that god was real. She "knows" god is real as she can feel his love and acceptance (and refuses my suggestion that this feeling is from her boyfriend); she also insists that she would have become a christian even if her boyfriend had been jewish, muslim, hindu or atheist.
Again, she seemed very innocent, and mainly ignorant of the bible, and said she did not believe anything that contradicted scientific evidence, so I just let things be (it was a touchy subject for her). However on occasion, I'd ask a question to try and make her think. Once, I asked what she believed the point of the story of creation was, if she did not believe it was true. She told me she did believe that it was true. That the earth and animals, all the stars, were created in 6 days.
As a child, I had read a LOT about astronomy, I had been fascinated by the subject and found it beautiful. It was the complexity of it that fascinated me, the long journeys that the particles would make to eventually take part in the formation of life here on earth, that would evolve into such a diverse collection of species... It's amazing. So for someone to say (and fully believe) that the earth was created in SIX DAYS is somewhat frustrating to me. I showed her supernovae and explained that there would have been a star that exploded "in" our solar system (the general area of it) to leave us with such vast quantities of the range of elements that we have on earth. But she denies it. She cannot explain why, simply that all the scientific evidence is wrong.
I decided this was the time that she should be informed of her religion, that if she believed everything in the bible, she should know what that included, and what the god she worshiped supposedly did. I asked which translation of the bible she preferred, and copied quotations from her preferred translation, quotations including god's commands to kill and enslave (including the killing of children), god plaguing people and killing thousands because several of them worshiped the wrong god. At the end of it all, she still believed that such a god who demanded the murder of innocent people, deserved to be worshiped, and she still wished that I would also worship him.

I'm sorry for just spilling this onto your forum, I simply had nobody to tell it to, and was even hoping for the opinions of others on the subject. I haven't talked to her since the situation I have described, and don't think that I can be friends with someone who worships a god that they believe would commit such atrocities. Surely the worship of such a being displays a complete lack of morality?
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15-06-2012, 10:48 PM
RE: Denial of the amazing [long]
(15-06-2012 05:26 PM)KiteFlyingBob Wrote:  I've been an atheist since around age 12 or 13, and was somewhat agnostic for most of my time before then. I never believed in a heaven or hell, I merely wondered about the existence of a being that would have created the universe, not one that intervened within it.
I live in the U.K. and if I remember correctly, only around 30% of people in the U.K. are religious (and I was very shocked when I learned that the majority of people in governments worldwide are religious, that's a little scary in my opinion). This means that I've never really had any hardships with being atheist (other than being told off in school for colouring in Jesus' nose green (I figured there's snot up there, so it must be green, explaining that didn't help my case!)); however I have had an online friend who is a christian. She seemed very innocent, and I believe she was [unintentionally] brainwashed into religion. She had never received much love or affection, had mainly been rejected socially, and the first guy to show her the attention she wanted was a christian, and spent months convincing her that god was real. She "knows" god is real as she can feel his love and acceptance (and refuses my suggestion that this feeling is from her boyfriend); she also insists that she would have become a christian even if her boyfriend had been jewish, muslim, hindu or atheist.
Again, she seemed very innocent, and mainly ignorant of the bible, and said she did not believe anything that contradicted scientific evidence, so I just let things be (it was a touchy subject for her). However on occasion, I'd ask a question to try and make her think. Once, I asked what she believed the point of the story of creation was, if she did not believe it was true. She told me she did believe that it was true. That the earth and animals, all the stars, were created in 6 days.
As a child, I had read a LOT about astronomy, I had been fascinated by the subject and found it beautiful. It was the complexity of it that fascinated me, the long journeys that the particles would make to eventually take part in the formation of life here on earth, that would evolve into such a diverse collection of species... It's amazing. So for someone to say (and fully believe) that the earth was created in SIX DAYS is somewhat frustrating to me. I showed her supernovae and explained that there would have been a star that exploded "in" our solar system (the general area of it) to leave us with such vast quantities of the range of elements that we have on earth. But she denies it. She cannot explain why, simply that all the scientific evidence is wrong.
I decided this was the time that she should be informed of her religion, that if she believed everything in the bible, she should know what that included, and what the god she worshiped supposedly did. I asked which translation of the bible she preferred, and copied quotations from her preferred translation, quotations including god's commands to kill and enslave (including the killing of children), god plaguing people and killing thousands because several of them worshiped the wrong god. At the end of it all, she still believed that such a god who demanded the murder of innocent people, deserved to be worshiped, and she still wished that I would also worship him.

I'm sorry for just spilling this onto your forum, I simply had nobody to tell it to, and was even hoping for the opinions of others on the subject. I haven't talked to her since the situation I have described, and don't think that I can be friends with someone who worships a god that they believe would commit such atrocities. Surely the worship of such a being displays a complete lack of morality?
tl;dr

what would you want our opinion on? I am very happy to answer, but I choose not to read long posts because they aren't really to the point and I have difficulty getting the questions that you want answered from them.

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16-06-2012, 05:54 AM
RE: Denial of the amazing [long]
Her morality may very well be perfectly alright. you could read richard dawkings god delusion. he describes a study made with jewish children. the very same sadistic story is morally ok if its from the bible, but in any other situation an atrocity. their brains are well capable of such strange derangements
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16-06-2012, 08:03 AM
RE: Denial of the amazing [long]
1) Where's your intro in the intro thread, hmmn?

2) Atothetheist, you sound like a snot. Mofo said it was long... Dodgy

3) The "love and acceptance" she feels coming from god do not come from her boyfriend but rather from simulation of another in mind. Image of god is the perfected simulation believers generate in their own minds. They pretty much must make their way from that mire by themselves. If someone says that their god is crap, they see it as an actual physical threat and shut down the learning process.

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16-06-2012, 08:47 AM
RE: Denial of the amazing [long]
(16-06-2012 08:03 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  1) Where's your intro in the intro thread, hmmn?

2) Atothetheist, you sound like a snot. Mofo said it was long... Dodgy

3) The "love and acceptance" she feels coming from god do not come from her boyfriend but rather from simulation of another in mind. Image of god is the perfected simulation believers generate in their own minds. They pretty much must make their way from that mire by themselves. If someone says that their god is crap, they see it as an actual physical threat and shut down the learning process.
Alright, I am sorry for acting like a snot..... Sad

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16-06-2012, 08:57 AM
RE: Denial of the amazing [long]
(16-06-2012 08:47 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Alright, I am sorry for acting like a snot..... Sad

Hug All better.

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16-06-2012, 11:03 AM
RE: Denial of the amazing [long]
(16-06-2012 05:54 AM)Vipa Wrote:  Her morality may very well be perfectly alright. you could read richard dawkings god delusion. he describes a study made with jewish children. the very same sadistic story is morally ok if its from the bible, but in any other situation an atrocity. their brains are well capable of such strange derangements
I'll definitely read the book sometime soon, it's been recommended to me by quite a few people. Though this still poses an issue to me, as I mentioned the idea of religious people having power is scary to me. If they begin to hear voices, they're less likely to question it, and more likely to accept it as a "sign". And if their god is exempt from moral responsibility, then whatever they believe they are told to do by god, they are likely to do without much concern for the implications of such actions. It's even more terrifying that these people believe in an afterlife, I think that the concept of an eternal life devalues the life we have, and could also devalue in their eyes the lives of others.
Even if they accept that god committed such atrocities, how can I deal with the fact that they believe this god deserves to be WORSHIPED by them, and even me?
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20-06-2012, 02:46 PM
RE: Denial of the amazing [long]
The real problem lies in the way the majority of Christians deal with problems.

Prayer may make a person feel better or relieve some stress by letting go and letting god, but they do not actually deal with the problems in an emotionally healthy manner for themselves and others.

An example would be if a friend and I got into a fight. I pray about, and the next day they are happy and we continue our friendly relationship. The problem is with out apologizing, those resentful feelings may come out in a future argument leading to a more explosive emotional response.

Another example is when another person is suffering. They'd pray that the person gets better, but after letting god in this case. They miss out on actually spending time with the person, and helping them in reality.

Those who keep the faith are those who follow the faith with out works is dead. When they couple prayer with the healthy methods of dealing with things. IE seeking help from professionals and actually helping others.

The only problem with that is they never realize that they are helping themselves and other people, not god.

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