Depopulation
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10-03-2015, 10:36 AM
RE: Depopulation
(10-03-2015 02:18 AM)morondog Wrote:  We *need* less humans IMO. All (well, a lot anyway) of our problems stem from overpopulation IMO. Global warming, lack of resources, rise of global poverty... How we get to having less humans is a matter of pressing concern. I think honestly there's gonna have to be some kind of population control measures implemented soon. I know, wildly undemocratic and evil but... if one's not willing to at least consider such seemingly extreme solutions then we may end up with an *unplanned* extreme solution (such as global war) which will result in everyone being much worse off...

Edit: By population control I mean reproduction control a la China's one child policy. Not exterminating people...

Maybe a government program to perform vasectomies on all males of reproductive age?
They're comparatively cheap and quick, and in many cases reversible. Tongue

ETA: This would be voluntary for those who have no intention of having children.
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10-03-2015, 11:00 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2015 11:03 AM by yakherder.)
RE: Depopulation
(10-03-2015 10:11 AM)NumberDigit Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 02:18 AM)morondog Wrote:  We *need* less humans IMO. All (well, a lot anyway) of our problems stem from overpopulation IMO. Global warming, lack of resources, rise of global poverty... How we get to having less humans is a matter of pressing concern. I think honestly there's gonna have to be some kind of population control measures implemented soon. I know, wildly undemocratic and evil but... if one's not willing to at least consider such seemingly extreme solutions then we may end up with an *unplanned* extreme solution (such as global war) which will result in everyone being much worse off...

Edit: By population control I mean reproduction control a la China's one child policy. Not exterminating people...

What would happen if someone disobeys that one child law?

Typically a fine. Also, if you work for the government, you'd get fired. It is, therefore, more common for private business people to have multiple children. My ex-wife (Chinese) had two sisters and a brother. Her parents had to pay about 10k yuan per extra kid, and only one is allowed to go to a state sponsored university.

In any case, they are relaxing the one child policy only to find that people are so used to having only one that most don't want more. In response, they've even started discussing requiring people to have second children in certain areas with an aging population and not enough children and young adults. The one child policy is coming back to bite them in the ass.

Many of the female illegal aliens from China in the New York area came from multiple child families in which the family ultimately decided to send the son to college and put their investment in his future. When talking to them I've been surprised to find out how many actually came from fairly wealthy families to come work as illegals in the U.S.

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10-03-2015, 11:21 AM
RE: Depopulation
This is not directed at any one person, more of a general response...

We actually produce more food per person than we ever have before, even with the growing population. The problem, as noted, is distribution. And to say that it's because greedy people don't want to deal with it is an extreme oversimplification. In places like Africa, various militia groups maintain control in the most impoverished regions. For them, starvation is a convenience that allows them to use seemingly common commodities like wheat flour to maintain absolute control. When U.N. does take an initiative like trying to air drop a bunch of food drive donations, what often happens after the food has been dropped is that the town is almost immediately attacked and massacred by militia. Those food donations threaten the control they have by making the villagers reliant on foreign aid instead of the militia, and they'd rather just kill them off than allow their authority to be compromised.

Just tossing food into a shit storm not only doesn't help, but actually makes the problem worse. We can't help them unless we have direct control of the area and can provide the show of force necessary to create a stable market environment.

Even as a temporary fix, such as with disaster areas, the flood of foreign aid often drives local agriculture out of business.

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10-03-2015, 01:00 PM
RE: Depopulation
(10-03-2015 11:21 AM)yakherder Wrote:  This is not directed at any one person, more of a general response...

We actually produce more food per person than we ever have before, even with the growing population. The problem, as noted, is distribution.

While we may currently have enough food to feed everyone the system is unsustainable and won't last for too much longer.

Another problem (aside from the interesting one about distribution that you mentioned) is that the food we are creating is dependent upon cheap energy, specifically cheap oil. Soil depletion is a big problem because like everything else it is a finite resource for all intents and purposes due to the slow rate at which top soil can be replaced. The nutrients just get washed out to sea, whether from irrigation or sometimes from being shat down the drains.

So agriculture requires cheap oil to create fertilisers to replace the lost nutrients. We are literally eating our supply of oil. Cheap energy is required for irrigation as well. It requires energy to pump water. Not only that but many places are mining their acquifers, sometimes becoming dependent upon fossil water.
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10-03-2015, 02:24 PM
RE: Depopulation
(10-03-2015 11:21 AM)yakherder Wrote:  We actually produce more food per person than we ever have before, even with the growing population.

As may be, but pop will grow in response to freely available food if you do solve the distribution problem, so you'll have the same problem again just with more people. Unless something's done artificially to control it.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-03-2015, 03:05 PM
RE: Depopulation
(10-03-2015 01:00 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 11:21 AM)yakherder Wrote:  This is not directed at any one person, more of a general response...

We actually produce more food per person than we ever have before, even with the growing population. The problem, as noted, is distribution.

While we may currently have enough food to feed everyone the system is unsustainable and won't last for too much longer.

Another problem (aside from the interesting one about distribution that you mentioned) is that the food we are creating is dependent upon cheap energy, specifically cheap oil. Soil depletion is a big problem because like everything else it is a finite resource for all intents and purposes due to the slow rate at which top soil can be replaced. The nutrients just get washed out to sea, whether from irrigation or sometimes from being shat down the drains.

So agriculture requires cheap oil to create fertilisers to replace the lost nutrients. We are literally eating our supply of oil. Cheap energy is required for irrigation as well. It requires energy to pump water. Not only that but many places are mining their acquifers, sometimes becoming dependent upon fossil water.

Agriculture uses cheap oil to produce fertilizers because it is cheap but doesn't require it. Current production depends on natural gas as a source of hydrogen. We could replace that part of the process and obtain the hydrogen by using electrolysis to crack water. Even better if solar was used to provide the required energy.

Water is the bigger issue. Things like low moisture farming would help a little, but the water still has come from somewhere. If the aquifers are depleted then we will be desalinating it and pumping it from the ocean. The energy requirement for that would be huge... Either that or a lot of people are going to starve.

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10-03-2015, 05:07 PM
RE: Depopulation
(09-03-2015 08:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  How about some actual facts? M'kay? Drinking Beverage

It takes 2.07 children per woman to maintain a stable population. Drinking Beverage

#sigh
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10-03-2015, 05:12 PM
RE: Depopulation
(10-03-2015 10:36 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 02:18 AM)morondog Wrote:  We *need* less humans IMO. All (well, a lot anyway) of our problems stem from overpopulation IMO. Global warming, lack of resources, rise of global poverty... How we get to having less humans is a matter of pressing concern. I think honestly there's gonna have to be some kind of population control measures implemented soon. I know, wildly undemocratic and evil but... if one's not willing to at least consider such seemingly extreme solutions then we may end up with an *unplanned* extreme solution (such as global war) which will result in everyone being much worse off...

Edit: By population control I mean reproduction control a la China's one child policy. Not exterminating people...

Maybe a government program to perform vasectomies on all males of reproductive age?
They're comparatively cheap and quick, and in many cases reversible. Tongue

ETA: This would be voluntary for those who have no intention of having children.

I wrote a letter to the Governor of Michigan - who at one time was on a big campaign to "get welfare under control"...

In it I outlined the idea of paying for voluntary sterilization of anyone -- and it was a sliding scale -- paying more if you'd never had kids -- and going down with each baby squirted out...... $10,000 for no kids, $5000 one kid, $2500 two kids, ect, ect.

It'd be far cheaper in the long run - and could help underprivileged with schooling - which would help their station in life move upward.

And don't go screaming "EUGENICS!!!".... It'd be voluntary. Want to have kids??? Fine... No problem.... You fuckin' better be willing to pay for 'em as well.......

I didn't even get a response......


Not real surprising. Everybody wants to get told what they already believe, and be convinced it's a new and improved idea......

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11-03-2015, 11:52 AM
RE: Depopulation
(09-03-2015 11:25 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  Is the Earth overpopulated? Yes. How do we know that? Basically it's fat people and skinny people. Much of the world has skinny people in it! (you know, the ones who die a lot?") Other parts have fat people. The fat people aren't concerned with the skinny ones, but won't share. They won't share, because they don't want to be skinny! So, if there was enough food to make everyone fat, there would be no problem!

There would probably be enough food to make everyone fat if we'd quit throwing it out..
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14-03-2015, 03:27 AM
RE: Depopulation
(10-03-2015 07:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 02:27 AM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  Is the world overpopulated? Simple question to answer: Does everyone have enough to eat? If not, why not? We can transport the food. Why don't we do that? "It's economics" you say. We can't make a profit! But if food is plentiful and cheap, why can't we make a profit?
It's supply and demand, right? Well we got plenty of demand! So why don't we supply? Could it be that we can't meet the demand?

There is enough food to meet the demand. There is not enough kindness to meet the demand. Drinking Beverage
Well, that's why Chaz has a bunch more stars than me. But I think he's really right! Or at least partly right. When I think about the diversity of things that are edible, Insects, whatever, I think he is right. But I can't envision a planet that can sustain unlimited growth. Also, you have to remember that he is of the Devil and trying to distort my pious teachings!
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