Describe an Atheist Moral Code
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04-04-2016, 04:41 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 04:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, the sum of a number of subjective views doesn't magically become objective. Facepalm

There isn't a sum of subjective views, there's a sum of objective beliefs, if which are not true, than the sum of these beliefs are false, not subjective.

If a man believes that intrinsic moral obligations and duties exist, which underly his claims of what is right and wrong, his moral position here doesn't transform into subjectivism, it would just be false.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-04-2016, 04:42 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 04:39 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're STILL equating fact with belief

No you are.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-04-2016, 04:43 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 04:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 04:39 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're STILL equating fact with belief

No you are.

Oh my god, you're dumber than I imagined. Gasp

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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04-04-2016, 04:47 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 04:43 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Oh my god, you're dumber than I imagined. Gasp

Did you want a high five for this comment?

I'm guessing you don't have many friends.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-04-2016, 04:49 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 04:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 04:43 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Oh my god, you're dumber than I imagined. Gasp

Did you want a high five for this comment?

I'm guessing you don't have many friends.

And the amateur Freud shows his face again... Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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04-04-2016, 04:51 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 03:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 10:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Subjective morality doesn't describe the moral views of society.
Correct, it doesn't. Society doesn't have moral beliefs. There is no authority (or spokesman) with regards to the morality of society. No documented morals, no source that can be refered to in case of a dispute.
There are a wide variety of moral beliefs held by each individual, not society.
(04-04-2016 10:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But let's assume that everyone has rethought their moral views, reinterpreted them all as subjective. Morality would just be a matter of what an individual believes should be labeled as morally good, and bad.
Yes, unless they have a person, organisation or book that they hold to as an authority. For example, many religious folk are taught (conditioned) not to trust their own judgement. They are taught to follow the direction of their "spiritual" leaders instead. For them, morality may seem somewhat arbitrary i.e. I don't do X because my leader tells me that X is immoral. They might not have any understanding as to why X might be considered immoral, but they belief it to be so because they delegate their thinking to their leaders adn don't bother themselves with such things.
For a person with this mindset they might be confused as to how other people (atheists) without moral leaders can decide that X is right or wrong. They might consider it to be a random choice, a whim, because they have no idea themselves how a person would go about working out if something is right or wrong. After all that is the domain of the gods, not the domain of flawed humans, right?

(04-04-2016 10:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Perhaps in some instances he might be in agreement with what most of the people in his community think
If they perceive from their interactions within society, given their niche of friends and family, given their place of work, their tv shows they watch, they might perceive that society is in accordance with their own moral beliefs. After all they may consider themselves to be a product of society (a norm amongst their peers), ingrained into this way of thinking with most of their interactions from birth onwards.
(04-04-2016 10:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  , perhaps not. Perhaps he thinks something is bad, while others thinks it' good.
Yes, well they don't tend to think X is moral in my society but I don't like X.
Morality always reflects the beliefs of the individual, not the beliefs of society.
If, for example, prostitution is legal and the majority of people think it is an occupation rather than a moral or immoral act, But Jude thinks prostitution is immoral then Jude will not say that prostitution is moral because in my society it is moral. Jude will be of the opinion that prostitution is immoral despite what others think.
(04-04-2016 10:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Since morality is not objective, there's no factual or objective basis to claim he is wrong for disagreeing with society here, anymore so than if he liked Justin Bieber, while the rest of community didn't. They might look at him a bit weird, but thats about it.
Yes. That's correct.
But of course the moral language is like a very thick fog. It hides all the underlying detail.
When Jude says that X is immoral, it isn't because Jude has randomly decided between moral and immoral for that act. This isn't something that Jude is going to flip the coin and randomly re-decide after lunch and then perhaps randomly re-decide after dinner.
Jude has her own life experiences, own values, own emotions and she has decided, possibly based on a multitude of inputs and reasons (some conflicting) that her opinion is that X is immoral. This is the right answer for her, but not necessarily for others.

I still don't exactly get how you make these divisions you do. What at all is a society but a collection of just individuals kinda order of going about a community.

All those individuals have their own existences, locations, lives, understandings, and communications that make up the total of what is a society. The society isn't anything set in stone or designed via law maker, ruler, or authority. Societies get formed and shift around those things as they are made in laws and orders.

To me these are the exact same ideas. I don't know what the difference is. What a society is vs what a society morality is, is calculated the same way. But judging the collective of the majority of people in the realm you're judging are.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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04-04-2016, 05:19 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 04:51 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I still don't exactly get how you make these divisions you do. What at all is a society but a collection of just individuals kinda order of going about a community.

All those individuals have their own existences, locations, lives, understandings, and communications that make up the total of what is a society. The society isn't anything set in stone or designed via law maker, ruler, or authority. Societies get formed and shift around those things as they are made in laws and orders.

To me these are the exact same ideas. I don't know what the difference is. What a society is vs what a society morality is, is calculated the same way. But judging the collective of the majority of people in the realm you're judging are.
You can define a society.
We could state by society we mean all people that live in NZ.
Or we could state by society we mean all people that live in Auckland and are actively involved in the Indian community there.
These are defined societies.

Within these societies there are a number of individuals. They each have their moral beliefs.
It makes no sense what-so-ever to state that the morality of the NZ society is that X is immoral.
NZ doesn't have a morality.
I keep harping on about this because many posters keep claiming that society has a morality. I would have thought this would have been clear from my post to Tomasia. With the response to the quoted phrase "Subjective morality doesn't describe the moral views of society."

I was agreeing with him and clarifying my position that there are no moral views of society.

Quite often people make bold statements about society having moral views. All we can say is "I believe that X is immoral. I have a set of moral beliefs..."
It makes no sense to say "moral views of society"
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04-04-2016, 05:20 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 04:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 04:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, the sum of a number of subjective views doesn't magically become objective. Facepalm

There isn't a sum of subjective views, there's a sum of objective beliefs, if which are not true, than the sum of these beliefs are false, not subjective.

If a man believes that intrinsic moral obligations and duties exist, which underly his claims of what is right and wrong, his moral position here doesn't transform into subjectivism, it would just be false.

What on earth has that to do with anything I wrote? Facepalm

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04-04-2016, 05:23 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 04:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Moral compass don't exist, they're just imaginary.
Just like your god.

A moral compass, a personal morality, ethic code, whatever you call it, is just as "imaginary" as any other thought we have. Insubstantial. Incorporeal. A product of the mind.
Just like your god.

(04-04-2016 04:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Those who get caught breaking the law, and tried and convicted are labelled criminals.
Very good. You have once again overstated the obvious. No one has disputed this and several people have already mentioned it.

(04-04-2016 04:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why not subscribe to a personal moral code, of what is good is what is beneficial to you? If you like it do it, if you don't, don't. If the benefit outweighs whatever personal cost, then go for it.
You mean like the christians who believe "once saved always saved"?
Or those who believe they can repent when they meet jesus?
Or those who believe they are acting in accordance with god's will?

People subscribe to a set of behaviors for a combination of reasons. Genetics, upbringing, environment, experience. Most persons do go through a phase where they do what they want without thought for others. It's called childhood. Then they grow up and realize that other people matter too.

Most people also usually go through a phase where they talk to imaginary friends. Most of them grow up and stop. Those who don't, we call "religious".

(04-04-2016 04:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why try and place yourself under the authority of consensus opinion (society)?

Because no other authority has manifested itself, other than the consensus opinion of society.

Should we trust your god? The muslim god? The jewish god? Norse? Greek?

(04-04-2016 04:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are there things you find beneficial to yourself that you avoid doing because you're afraid of societies subjective moral opinions here?

Are you playing the "why-dont-you-rape/steal/kill-if-there-is-no-god?" card? Seriously, are you?

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04-04-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 04:43 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Oh my god, you're dumber than I imagined. Gasp

He's not being dumb. It's worse. He's being deliberately dishonest.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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