Describe an Atheist Moral Code
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05-04-2016, 01:43 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(05-04-2016 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You could say that the majority of people within such and such a society believes that X is immoral.

Society doesn't have a morality.

That's all that it means.

Jane not accepting the ideals and tends of her society doesn't make it no the majority behavior and opinion.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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05-04-2016, 02:01 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(05-04-2016 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 06:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What's often meant by society, is to see it like a community, for whom the majority might share certain moral views with each other, while not agreeing on everything that they consider wrong. The views on abortion might be split, but not that it's wrong to torture babies just for fun, where most people in a society would agree.

You might be an outlier here, but it's not presented as absolute, but as a majority view.
The thing is, we cannot say that the morality of society is assessed by evaluating the majority opinion.

Morality doesn't work that way.

If Jane lives within a society and within that society the majority of people see eating meat as moral but Jane being a Vegan sees eating meat as being immoral. Jane will not accept, that being part of this society, that eating meat is moral. She does not recognise a "morality of society". The only people that make a claim as to "the morality of society" are those that agree with the majority on this particular topic. They project their own moral belief and use society to substantiate their own belief, as if the numbers make their own belief all the more real, important or true.

Society doesn't have a morality.

You could say that the majority of people within such and such a society believes that X is immoral. But you can't say that the morality of that society is such that X is immoral.

Society doesn't have a morality.

Society doesn't have anything. You are assuming that when people discuss morality, that they are anthropomorphizing society. We aren't. You are.

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05-04-2016, 02:01 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(05-04-2016 01:43 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You could say that the majority of people within such and such a society believes that X is immoral.

Society doesn't have a morality.

That's all that it means.

Jane not accepting the ideals and tends of her society doesn't make it no the majority behavior and opinion.
No, but a vote determining the majority opinion doesn't make X immoral within that society.
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05-04-2016, 02:02 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(05-04-2016 02:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 01:43 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  That's all that it means.

Jane not accepting the ideals and tends of her society doesn't make it no the majority behavior and opinion.
No, but a vote determining the majority opinion doesn't make X immoral within that society.

Who said anything about voting? You are grossly oversimplifying the descriptions of societies and how they function.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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05-04-2016, 02:28 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(05-04-2016 10:35 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  As you have been told, many times, you do insult people. When you strawman their arguments, misconstrue their points and assign them unfavorable opinions, all so that you pitiful arguments make sense.

That is insulting.
You have been informed of that, so when you deny it, that makes you a liar. Again.

Plenty of things get misconstrued in communications from both parties, particularly when both parties live on opposite fences, perhaps even occupying two separate planets. And we're clearly not compatible personality types. But I'm mindful of misinterpreting others, and give plenty of opportunities for individuals to clarify any misinterpretations, routinely acknowledging these clarifications when cleared up.

Perhaps I insult your intelligence, but I don't recall ever resorting to personal attacks against you, or even calling you names. I have nothing against you personally for me to be a dick to you. You seem okay in my book.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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05-04-2016, 02:39 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(05-04-2016 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You could say that the majority of people within such and such a society believes that X is immoral. But you can't say that the morality of that society is such that X is immoral.

Unless that's what you mean when you say society believes that X is immoral. Like when we say Texans are very friendly. Or Californians are laid back, etc... Muslims societies frown on homosexuality, etc... We're not so much speaking about an individuals texans, but a generalization, a common tendency or outlook of most folks that occupy that space.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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05-04-2016, 03:51 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(05-04-2016 02:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 02:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  No, but a vote determining the majority opinion doesn't make X immoral within that society.

Who said anything about voting? You are grossly oversimplifying the descriptions of societies and how they function.
If you were to make a claim that X is immoral within a particular society, then how would you come about that conclusion?

Would you do a survey or get people to vote or something else? What would be your method to determine the claim?

All I am doing is trying to understand what is meant when other people say the phrase “morality of society”. It seems nonsensical to me. I haven’t heard anyone explain it in a way that clarifies it sufficiently.
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05-04-2016, 04:02 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(05-04-2016 02:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You could say that the majority of people within such and such a society believes that X is immoral. But you can't say that the morality of that society is such that X is immoral.

Unless that's what you mean when you say society believes that X is immoral. Like when we say Texans are very friendly. Or Californians are laid back, etc...
Well, not exactly.

With morality comes the “shoulds” and “oughts”.
If you are saying that within a particular society that gay sex is immoral then you are saying that people living within that society are morally obliged not to participate in gay sex.

But do gay people living in that society deem their love and physical expression to be immoral? Unless a church has confused them and warped their brain then no, they wouldn’t feel that obligation.

Society does not come with a set of subscribed morals.
Each individual gets to make that up for themselves as they see fit.


If you want to generalise, then word your phrase differently e.g. Texans tend to be friendly.
Or Kiwi’s tend to be accepting of various beliefs or non beliefs. Or that most kiwis think it is immoral to cheat on your wife/husband.

To claim that it is immoral within the NZ society to cheat on your spouse is certainly an overstatement and most likely just a projection of the claimant’s own moral beliefs. NZ doesn’t have a moral spokesman or a moral document of authority.
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05-04-2016, 04:19 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(05-04-2016 03:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 02:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Who said anything about voting? You are grossly oversimplifying the descriptions of societies and how they function.
If you were to make a claim that X is immoral within a particular society, then how would you come about that conclusion?

Would you do a survey or get people to vote or something else? What would be your method to determine the claim?

All I am doing is trying to understand what is meant when other people say the phrase “morality of society”. It seems nonsensical to me. I haven’t heard anyone explain it in a way that clarifies it sufficiently.

If you wanted to read a description of ancient Roman society, what would you do? Find a Roman and ask them? Find a bunch of Romans and have them vote on their views? Or use historical records, writings, laws, customs, etc, to draw conclusions about them?

No one has ever claimed that you will capture the full variance of every single individual belief and view, but you can frame society's views and influences and over-arching themes and ideas and beliefs. Including views and opinions on morals and morality and how it evolves.

This is why we study history.

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05-04-2016, 04:25 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
Your argument, Stevil, would be akin to saying that a species has no distinctive characteristics or traits because each individual of a species is variable.

We can make observations about populations and draw inferences about that population from a random sampling of that population. If we can do that when studying biology, then why not human society?

We do. It's history.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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