Describe an Atheist Moral Code
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04-04-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 07:04 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Good is whatever is beneficial to the community.

No Good is whatever is beneficial to me.

Or did i just make an objectively false statement?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-04-2016, 07:28 AM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 07:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why not just ask me to put my hands on the fire? I'm not doing it because getting burnt is not worth the benefit of putting my hand on the fire. The benefit of robbing a bank, is outweighed for me by the potential of going to jail.

Because setting yourself on fire is not a moral decision.

Robbing a bank is against secular laws of society. If you break that law you suffer the penalties, in other words, go to jail.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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04-04-2016, 07:33 AM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 07:28 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 07:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why not just ask me to put my hands on the fire? I'm not doing it because getting burnt is not worth the benefit of putting my hand on the fire. The benefit of robbing a bank, is outweighed for me by the potential of going to jail.

Because setting yourself on fire is not a moral decision.

Robbing a bank is against secular laws of society. If you break that law you suffer the penalties, in other words, go to jail.

It against the laws of a particular society, just like in some societies eating pork, holding hands, kissing your wife, is illegal. That much we can acknowledge.

But it's not a moral decision, because morality does not exist. You can highlight the legalities, and penalties associated with robbing a bank, but claiming it as moral, adds no objective fact to the action at all, because there are no moral facts.

It's not immoral to me, and unless you believe I'm objectively wrong in stating this, you have no argument.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-04-2016, 08:19 AM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 07:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It against the laws of a particular society, just like in some societies eating pork, holding hands, kissing your wife, is illegal. That much we can acknowledge.

But it's not a moral decision, because morality does not exist. You can highlight the legalities, and penalties associated with robbing a bank, but claiming it as moral, adds no objective fact to the action at all, because there are no moral facts.

It's not immoral to me, and unless you believe I'm objectively wrong in stating this, you have no argument.

Yeah, saw that one coming.

First of all, as discussed in other threads, Objective Morals do not exist. Subjective Morals do. Subjective Morals are all that we have.

Every society defines what is moral to that society.
Secular laws and secular morality are the only gauges that matter.

A fantasy judgment and a fantasy punishment mean nothing when compared to real life. You can say "god's law" and threaten us with hell. But can you show definitely that hell and god exist, and prove that your interpretation of god's law is correct?

If we want better laws, a better justice system, then it is up to us to figure one out. The sooner we stop wasting time arguing about what god wants, the sooner we can do it.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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04-04-2016, 08:31 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2016 08:36 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 08:19 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 07:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It against the laws of a particular society, just like in some societies eating pork, holding hands, kissing your wife, is illegal. That much we can acknowledge.

But it's not a moral decision, because morality does not exist. You can highlight the legalities, and penalties associated with robbing a bank, but claiming it as moral, adds no objective fact to the action at all, because there are no moral facts.

It's not immoral to me, and unless you believe I'm objectively wrong in stating this, you have no argument.

Yeah, saw that one coming.

First of all, as discussed in other threads, Objective Morals do not exist. Subjective Morals do. Subjective Morals are all that we have.

Every society defines what is moral to that society.
Secular laws and secular morality are the only gauges that matter.

Societies tend to believe in objective morality, if objective morality does not exist, this does mean their moral views become subjective, it means they become false. Objective claims don't become subjective just because they're not true.

Also if morality is subjective, that don't mean that society is arbiter of what morality is, I can be as well. Perhaps for you morality is a matter of the consensus opinions of any particular society. It's silly, but hey whatever floats you're boat.

For others, what's good is merely that which is beneficial for them, if that goes against what the consensus wants, so be it, and if I'm fine with whatever consequences may follow, than so be it. Perhaps I'm not bothered by the social stigma inflicted on me by a group of liberals, etc...

Quote:If we want better laws, a better justice system, then it is up to us to figure one out. The sooner we stop wasting time arguing about what god wants, the sooner we can do it.

Perhaps we should expunge talk about morality all together, stevil will likely agree. Telling me that hey if I rob a bank, there's a good chance I'll get caught and end up jail, seems to be a more solid suggestion as to why I should avoid doing so, than society is going to wag it's finger at you.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-04-2016, 08:37 AM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 08:31 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Societies tend to believe in objective morality,

Citation needed.

Quote:if objective morality does not exist, this does mean their moral views become subjective, it means they become false.

That does not follow. Subjective does not mean either true or false.

Quote:Objective claims don't become subjective just because they're not true.

Objective morality claims are false because there is no objective morality.

Quote:Also if morality is subjective, that don't mean that society is arbiter of what morality is, I can be as well. Perhaps for you morality is a matter of the consensus opinions of any particular society. It's silly, but hey whatever floats you're boat.

For others, what's good is merely that which is beneficial for them, if that goes against what the consensus wants, so be it, and if I'm fine with whatever consequences may follow, than so be it. Perhaps I'm not bothered by the social stigma inflicted on me by a group of liberals, etc...

Of course you can, but there will be risk.

Quote:
Quote:If we want better laws, a better justice system, then it is up to us to figure one out. The sooner we stop wasting time arguing about what god wants, the sooner we can do it.

Perhaps we should expunges talk about morality all together, stevil will likely agree.

Why? Morality is a useful term that describes guidelines for behavior.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-04-2016, 08:42 AM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 08:31 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's silly, but hey whatever floats you're boat.

Almost as silly as trying to imagine what a 2000 years dead political criminal would say in reference to modern society.

Almost as silly as trying to twist the cherry-picked moral code of an ancient civilization into modern society.


But, since god's law trumps modern law:

Have you killed any witches recently?
Stoned any adulterers?
Bought any slaves from the heathen around you?
Stoned any unruly children?

Because last I checked, those were okay according to your god...

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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04-04-2016, 08:44 AM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 08:31 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Perhaps we should expunge talk about morality all together, stevil will likely agree. Telling me that hey if I rob a bank, there's a good chance I'll get caught and end up jail, seems to be a more solid suggestion as to why I should avoid doing so, than society is going to wag it's finger at you.

I already did.

(04-04-2016 07:28 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Robbing a bank is against secular laws of society. If you break that law you suffer the penalties, in other words, go to jail.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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04-04-2016, 09:03 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2016 09:06 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 08:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 08:31 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Societies tend to believe in objective morality,

Citation needed.

If you're entirely unreflective and clueless your demand for citation might make sense.

When the framers of the American Constitution, began the declaration of independence, writing of natural rights, inalienable rights endowed upon us by a creator, that should give you a clue. Not to mention that societies have for most of their history been predominantly religious, and religious view of morality are almost exclusively teleological, built on beliefs in a human telos.

But if you truly want to educate yourself here, there are some seminal works on the subject that highlight the history from past to present. Charles Taylor's A Secular Age, and Alasdair Macintyre After Virtue should be a good start.

Quote:That does not follow. Subjective does not mean either true or false.

No objective statements are either true or false. If they are false, that doesn't mean they some how magically become subjective statements.

Quote:Objective morality claims are false because there is no objective morality.

Yes, they would be false if there is no objective morality, they wouldn't become subjective because they're false.

Quote:Why? Morality is a useful term that describes guidelines for behavior.

If morality can only be subjective, then it's entirely useless term. We should expunge it all together, and highlight the supposed risk associated with an action, so any individual person can outweigh the risk as opposed to the benefit, and judge whether they personally should take them on or not.

You're not telling me anything by pointing out the robbing a bank is a immoral, no particularly facts are being shared with me here. As opposed to informing me of the risk of getting caught, and potential consequences.

Morality seems to be in this case, a false sense of imprisonment, an appeal to a master that does not exist, a God substitute, in which we're only arbitrary obligated to. You're no slave man, so get rid of that morality non-sense. And think in terms of what you get out of it, and whether the risk are ones your interested in taking on. What's stopping you? The gates of the cage are open. Fly little bird, fly.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-04-2016, 09:14 AM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 08:42 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Because last I checked, those were okay according to your god...

I doubt you'll be able to tell me much of anything about the supposed God I believe in, or much of anything about my religious beliefs, or even my own moral views. But you can go on right ahead with your assumptions, that's fine by me.

For the sake of discussions, just treat me as one who lacks a belief in a variety of things you possibly believe in. That I'm refraining from making any positive religious claims all together. Sound good?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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