Describe an Atheist Moral Code
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04-04-2016, 10:41 AM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 09:03 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 08:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  Citation needed.

If you're entirely unreflective and clueless your demand for citation might make sense.

You have not addressed the issue.

Quote:When the framers of the American Constitution, began the declaration of independence,

Those weren't the same groups of people. Those events were separated by several years including an entire war.

Quote:writing of natural rights, inalienable rights endowed upon us by a creator,
that should give you a clue.

The clue is that many believed in a deity and that deity bestowed rights, not morals.

Quote:Not to mention that societies have for most of their history been predominantly religious, and religious view of morality are almost exclusively teleological, built on beliefs in a human telos.

But if you truly want to educate yourself here, there are some seminal works on the subject that highlight the history from past to present. Charles Taylor's A Secular Age, and Alasdair Macintyre After Virtue should be a good start.

Being religious does not necessarily entail objective morality.

Quote:
Quote:That does not follow. Subjective does not mean either true or false.

No objective statements are either true or false. If they are false, that doesn't mean they some how magically become subjective statements.

That is not what I said.

Quote:
Quote:Objective morality claims are false because there is no objective morality.

Yes, they would be false if there is no objective morality, they wouldn't become subjective because they're false.

That is not what I said.

Quote:
Quote:Why? Morality is a useful term that describes guidelines for behavior.

If morality can only be subjective, then it's entirely useless term. We should expunge it all together, and highlight the supposed risk associated with an action, so any individual person can outweigh the risk as opposed to the benefit, and judge whether they personally should take them on or not.

You're not telling me anything by pointing out the robbing a bank is a immoral, no particularly facts are being shared with me here. As opposed to informing me of the risk of getting caught, and potential consequences.

Morality seems to be in this case, a false sense of imprisonment, an appeal to a master that does not exist, a God substitute, in which we're only arbitrary obligated to. You're no slave man, so get rid of that morality non-sense. And think in terms of what you get out of it, and whether the risk are ones your interested in taking on. What's stopping you? The gates of the cage are open. Fly little bird, fly.

Morality describes the ethics and mores of a society. How is that not useful?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-04-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 10:23 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Oh? I was under the impression that you were a christian. Am I incorrect?

If you are a xtian, then by default the bible is the cornerstone of that faith.
It is perfectly reasonable to infer that a Christian believes in the bible. If you claim to be a xtian and deny the bible, then it is your obligation to clarify that.

By asking you those questions, I was trying to clarify your position and determine your morale stance.

In other words, I was doing the exact opposite of what you accuse me of. Try to keep up, ok?

Now, if you are done with your strawmen, we can continue. Or are there other fallacies you'd like to trot out?

I hold no religious views I care to defend or argue about with atheists. I made no positive religious claims, so demands that I prove or justify them, are to be ignored. As far as you are to be concerned, I only lack a belief in a variety of things that you do, because in Rome I do as the Romans, and I'm only interested in what the Romans do.

Quote:No, actually. Your posts here are echoing posts you've made in other threads. You've denied the validity of secular morality by claiming that an egocentric morality is equally valid to a secular system of law and morals.


If morality is subjective, all views are equally valid. There are no moral facts to appeal to, to make one subjective view any more valid than the other. It's to each his own. It's like arguing whose wife is prettier.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-04-2016, 10:55 AM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
Dont be a dick, be skeptical, stand up for yourself and others.
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04-04-2016, 10:59 AM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 10:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  Morality describes the ethics and mores of a society. How is that not useful?

Subjective morality doesn't describe the moral views of society.

But let's assume that everyone has rethought their moral views, reinterpreted them all as subjective. Morality would just be a matter of what an individual believes should be labeled as morally good, and bad. Perhaps in some instances he might be in agreement with what most of the people in his community think, perhaps not. Perhaps he thinks something is bad, while others thinks it' good.

Since morality is not objective, there's no factual or objective basis to claim he is wrong for disagreeing with society here, anymore so than if he liked Justin Bieber, while the rest of community didn't. They might look at him a bit weird, but thats about it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-04-2016, 12:49 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 10:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Subjective morality doesn't describe the moral views of society.

He didn't say subjective. You did. Just gonna beat that strawman into the ground, aren't you?

(04-04-2016 10:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But let's assume that everyone has rethought their moral views, reinterpreted them all as subjective.

Define your god's objective moral code.

Obviously, we are not aware of this code.

Define it. Prove that it exists. Prove the authority on which it is based.

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04-04-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 12:49 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  He didn't say subjective. You did. Just gonna beat that strawman into the ground, aren't you?


He has.

(04-04-2016 10:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Define your god's objective moral code.

Obviously, we are not aware of this code.

Define it. Prove that it exists. Prove the authority on which it is based.

Refer to post 62. But i'll highlight that portion again for you.

"I hold no religious views I care to defend or argue about with atheists, I made no positive religious claims, so demands that I prove or justify them, are to be ignored. As far as you are to be concerned, I only lack a belief in a variety of things that you do.."

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-04-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 10:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 10:23 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Oh? I was under the impression that you were a christian. Am I incorrect?

If you are a xtian, then by default the bible is the cornerstone of that faith.
It is perfectly reasonable to infer that a Christian believes in the bible. If you claim to be a xtian and deny the bible, then it is your obligation to clarify that.

By asking you those questions, I was trying to clarify your position and determine your morale stance.

In other words, I was doing the exact opposite of what you accuse me of. Try to keep up, ok?

Now, if you are done with your strawmen, we can continue. Or are there other fallacies you'd like to trot out?

I hold no religious views I care to defend or argue about with atheists. I made no positive religious claims, so demands that I prove or justify them, are to be ignored. As far as you are to be concerned, I only lack a belief in a variety of things that you do, because in Rome I do as the Romans, and I'm only interested in what the Romans do.

Quote:No, actually. Your posts here are echoing posts you've made in other threads. You've denied the validity of secular morality by claiming that an egocentric morality is equally valid to a secular system of law and morals.


If morality is subjective, all views are equally valid. There are no moral facts to appeal to, to make one subjective view any more valid than the other. It's to each his own. It's like arguing whose wife is prettier.

"I hold no religious views I care to defend or argue about with atheists. I made no positive religious claims, so demands that I prove or justify them, are to be ignored. As far as you are to be concerned, I only lack a belief in a variety of things that you do, because in Rome I do as the Romans, and I'm only interested in what the Romans do."

You are a theist on an atheist site presenting your religious views on morality. You are technically correct in that you aren't arguing them, but you absolutely are defending your preaching of your religious morality.


"If morality is subjective, all views are equally valid. There are no moral facts to appeal to, to make one subjective view any more valid than the other. It's to each his own. It's like arguing whose wife is prettier."

Morality is subjective. No "Ifs" about it.

You believe this, correct? You believe that morality actually is subjective?

Or are you presenting more straw men? Drinking Beverage

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04-04-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 01:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Morality is subjective. No "Ifs" about it.

You believe this, correct? You believe that morality actually is subjective?

Or are you presenting more straw men? Drinking Beverage

Already addressed, refer to post 45.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-04-2016, 01:07 PM
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 01:05 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-04-2016 01:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Morality is subjective. No "Ifs" about it.

You believe this, correct? You believe that morality actually is subjective?

Or are you presenting more straw men? Drinking Beverage

Already addressed, refer to post 45.

No, you didn't address it.

Do you believe morality is subjective?

Or, are you presenting a straw man of the subjective position to pretend you are arguing from? (being a Poe)

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04-04-2016, 01:10 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2016 01:24 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Describe an Atheist Moral Code
(04-04-2016 01:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  No, you didn't address it.

Do you believe morality is subjective?

Or, are you presenting a straw man of the subjective position to pretend you are arguing from? (being a Poe)

I lack a belief that morality is subjective.

The previous post addressed that if someone believes in objective morality, in light of objective morality not existing, his moral statements don't become subjective as a result of this, they become false.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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